"Legal" shot rules clarification please???

Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
BCA General Rules of Pocket Billiards, rule 3.19 Legal Shot states: Unless otherwise stated in a specific game rule (and there is NO specific rule in 8-ball), a player must cause the cue ball to contact a legal object ball and then: (a) Pocket a numbered ball, or;
(b) Cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a cushion or any part of the rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.


In the Official APA 8-Ball Game Rules Booklet page 7 (under the title "These Are The Only Fouls Resulting In Ball-In-Hand"), rule C states: Failure to hit a rail after contact. A sentence that should answer many questions is: "Any ball (including the cue ball) must go to a rail AFTER LEGAL contact". A pocketed ball counts as a rail.

Above are the rules straight out of the books. Here's what happened to me in league the other night. My opponent and I were both down to one ball apiece. It is his shot. His ball is hanging dead center in a corner pocket on the head-end of the table. My ball is frozen to his about an inch off the point. The 8-ball is on the same end of the table on the first diamond both on the side rail and head rail. He has no way to hit his ball. He picks up the cue ball and hands it to me, giving me ball in hand. He wants ME to hit my ball and knock his ball in thus giving him a simple shot on the eight. I thought about lining up and trying to use spin to make both balls, but I came up with a better solution. I took ball-in-hand, set it down between the head rail and the 8-ball and proceeded to knock the eight all the way down to the middle of the foot rail, giving him ball in hand. He looked at his options for a few seconds and again picked up the cue ball giving me ball-in-hand once again, figuring I couldn't improve my lot over my last shot. So I took the cue ball, set it right next to the head rail and tapped my ball, making his, and putting the cue ball on the long rail a full seven feet from the eight ball with the eight in the middle and almost touching the foot rail.
Of course he cried foul and wanted ball-in-hand for an easy shot on the eight. I told him about what the above stated rule says on the matter and pulled out the APA rulebook and showed him the rule. He relented and took a very difficult shot on the eight, missed and allowed me to go out. Now, in y'alls opinion of the meaning of the rules, was I right or was I wrong? It nowhere specifies that the pocketed ball must be one of YOUR balls, just that a numbered ball (BCA) or a pocketed ball (APA) must be made to be a "legal" shot. Opinions???

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
... Now, in y'alls opinion of the meaning of the rules, was I right or was I wrong? It nowhere specifies that the pocketed ball must be one of YOUR balls, just that a numbered ball (BCA) or a pocketed ball (APA) must be made to be a "legal" shot. Opinions???

Maniac
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The point of the rule is to prevent simple safeties in the middle of the table that don't hit a cushion. Pocketing any ball is sufficient to get credit for "a rail." (By contrast, you can play the no-rail safety at snooker -- all you have to do is hit the ball, no cushion is required.)
 
yep, you are correct. You did not commit any foul, and in fact played the correct shot in the given situation.

Just a note: you almost had a situation where a stalemated game could occur, if you both kept on passing on the shot. This is in BCA, I am not 100% sure that it applies to APA, but it is worth checking into for you before you find yourself in the situation again.
 
You are correct and made a good decision.

One thing to be careful of though. You really are not supposed to pick up the cue ball with your hand and hand it to you opponent. That is "unsportsman-like interference" and in a refereed match could be loss of game. You technically should go ahead and shoot the intentional foul shot.

Bob - Is that correct?
 
Hey Gadawg, I have heard this before being brought up on here. I am curious also to hear what Bob would say about this. I have always just picked it up and handed it over and it has always been kinda standard practice in every place I have played. But have heard the other side also. I think you are correct in a strict interpretation of the rules, but have never had anyone question me when I do it. I feel it is a more honest and sportsmanlike that "faking" a shot to get the same result. I feel it is kind of an insult to be like "oops, I missed, I guess you get ball in hand, darn!". I think it shows more respect to say here you go, I don't have any better ideas, and I think this is my best course of action. The end result is the same, but I feel like pretending to shhot a shot is a bit like insulting someones intelligence. Anyone else have any comments?
 
poolpro -

When I do this, I don't fake a shot. I shoot an obvious foul where there is no question that I was trying to make a legitimate shot and missed. I will either shoot to where there are no balls to possibly hit, or shoot directly into a pocket and scratch.

I don't make the rules, but try to follow them as best I can to avoid any possible questions.

I have never called anybody for picking up a ball and handing it, but if you get in that habit and accidentally do it in a refereed match, it might cost you.

I have enough bad habits without adding that one.
 
I agree with you, in a refereed match it would be a problem. I did say that if you are being strict in the interpretion of the rules you are 100% correct. I was just wondering how people felt about it.
Let me just say that I have played pool for over 15 years ( 10-12 hours a day for a lot of that time), in all kinds of leagues and tournaments( even national ones). I felt I knew the rules backward and forwards, and I literally just heard this interpretation maybe three months ago. I am glad that I am now better informed. I was just wondering if other players felt the same way I do, that it is a bit silly. I really do not feel this is unsportsmanlike conduct, and was wanting to hear other opinions about this. Does anyone know for sure that this has actually been called and considered unsportsmanlike in a refereed match? I am very curious.
 
GADawg said:
I have never called anybody for picking up a ball and handing it, but if you get in that habit and accidentally do it in a refereed match, it might cost you.
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This handing of the cue ball is legal in the APA, at least in the LO's area I shoot out of. Everybody does it.

I am also aware of the stalemate rule. That is why when I got the first ball-in-hand, I used it to run the 8-ball down table. On my next ball-in-hand, I tapped his ball into the pocket. No stalemate there.

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
This handing of the cue ball is legal in the APA, at least in the LO's area I shoot out of. Everybody does it...
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The APA rules are on-line. I think there is no permission to pass the shot, but the rules are not particularly complete or well written.

In any case, you can nearly always improve things by taking some shot, such as tying up two of your opponent's balls, or making him walk to the far end of the table to get the cue ball. Yes, it takes a nit in an unrefereed match to call the foul, but I think we've all played against nits. If the match is refereed, and the referee is any good, the appropriate unsportsmanlike call will be made.
 
Actually I am just about to start in a new league that I have never played in before, the ACS league ( American Cue Sports). They use world standardized rules (BCA), and texas express ( without the three foul rule). I was just looking over their website and under their FAQ section while describing a stalemate situation they actually use the term "handing it back and forth" talking about the cue as it pertains to ball in hand. So, it seems that while playing in this league at least, I should not have to worry about this being a problem. The website is palmbeachacs.com in case you were wondering.
 
Kyle One said:
How can he just give you a ball in hand without even attempting a shot? or did I just read that incorrectly?
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In informal games, some players just pick up the cue ball from a hopeless position and hand it to their opponent. I don't know of any written set of rules that actually permits this. It is tolerated in some leagues and tournaments. It is usually the wrong strategy even if it were within permitted actions in the game.

The strict rule is: you must take a shot when it is your turn. Intentionally touching any ball in play (including the cue ball) is not a permitted part of the game. It is outside the game. It can be considered unsportsmanlike conduct. The only way you are permitted to intentionally change the position of the balls in play is by striking the cue ball with a forward motion of your tip. No, you can't push out with the side of your cue.
 
Hey Bob, I am just curious, in your personal opinion do you feel that handing the cue ball over IS unsportsmanlike conduct. If so, why? I think it is kinda like a team throwing the ball out of bounds to run down a clock for tactical reasons.

Actually, I think it isn't even like that as the end result is the same whether I tap it with my cue tip, or pick it up, it still equates to the same thing.

For example, if we each have one ball left, or I have one ball and you have the eight ball left, and they are frozen to each other on the other end of the table, but near a rail ( or even one of them frozen to a rail), And my cue ball is sitting very close to the far end rail, any attempt on a legal hit would almost certainly result in a better situation for my opponent than ball in hand. Or even worse,in the same situation you still have an aditional ball blocking my route to the other two balls. So, I could break that cluster AND risk giving you ball in hand, or I could just give you ball in hand. I know that there is a very simple return safe for you in that situation, but still I would rather play it out and make you earn it than hand you an easy ball in hand run.

Anyway, is it your opinion that it is rude ( unsportsmanlike) to pick the ball up? I kinda think that for something to be considered unsportsmanlike it should be a blatent disregard for the rules or the opponent, and I don't think this qualifies. Just curious. Thanks.

One other thing: the rules clearly address a stalemate situation where neither player is trying to advance their position for fear of improving the opponents situation. So, passing on a shot is accepted and legal ( or at least not considered unsportsmanlike). So why is it okay for me to pass on a shot ( not attempt to even make contact with a ball), but to pick it up and hand it to my opponent and communicate this as my intention is considered unsportsmanlike?

Just as in the case of an unintentional foul, at the end of the shot, or if it were to scratch, I would pick up the cue ball and hand it to my opponent. I actually consider this a polite courtesy, to not make my opponenet walk all the way around the table to proceed with his shot. Or if my cueball jumps off the table on a break shot and goes twenty feet down the pool hall, I will usually go and retrieve it for my opponent as a courtesy. I have already comitted the foul, and my opponent gets ball in hand, I am just speeding up game play. I don't think anyone would call this unsportsmanlike. So, if I intentionallly want to give up ball in hand it is unsportsmanlike to hand it to my opponent, but if I accidently foul, it is okay to pick it up and hand it over?

I do see one difference, which is that if I pick up the ball while it is my shot, that ball was still in play when I touched it. Whereas, if the ball is on the floor, it is not. Is that it? Still, I am under the understanding that the cue ball is always live, meaning that if you have ball in hand, and you touch another ball with it while placing it, it would be a foul. I am just trying to understand the reasoning here.
 
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Yes that is what they are saying is the correct response. And if I am ever in a situation where someone will try and call me on it, that's exactly what I will do. I just think it is a bit silly to go through the trouble and pretend. I was trying to get to the thinking behind calling this unsportsmanlike.
 
When writing any set of rules it is a good idea to keep them simple, straightforward and efficient. Then its more likely for the rules to cover the range of possible actions that could occur.

If you're in the motion of picking up the cue ball, and it slips outta control disturbing balls, maybe even knocking in the game ball... or any set of possible actions... then you may have created an incident and thus have to scan through the rulebook/TD to try to figure out how that particular situation should be handled. Totally preventable situation...

Whereas, if you do a range of actions by course of a stroke, many people are already familiar with how to handle those situations according to the rules. Thus, it will be more likely that the situation can be handled without issue.

Of course anyone can try to nitpick and find some rare situation just for the purpose of discussing ad infintem.

Maybe the real point is that in the long run, it might just be more curteous to go with the rule and simply tap the cue ball with the stick, especially during competitive play.
 
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All of that is true and in thinking about it, I can visualize a situation where it might be an unfair advantage for you to pick up the ball rather than shoot something.

Suppose you are playing 8 ball and somehow closely trapped behind a couple of your opponents balls against a rail in such a manner that he would not have a good shot if he had ball in hand with no balls moved, but might have an improved situation if the balls were moved by your shot and you fouled giving him BIH

You can't just pick up the ball and hand it to him. You must make some effort at a stroke. Even trying to shoot a foul stroke, you might screw up and leave him a shot.
 
Bob Jewett said:
In informal games, some players just pick up the cue ball from a hopeless position and hand it to their opponent. I don't know of any written set of rules that actually permits this. It is tolerated in some leagues and tournaments. It is usually the wrong strategy even if it were within permitted actions in the game.
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Bob, in my opinion I believe the picking up and handing over the cue ball in the APA is allowed to speed up the matches, many which don't get over with until around 11:00 p.m. If I am at a bar/hall 10-15 miles from home and my weeks match doesn't get over with until 11 and I've got my alarm clock set at 4:30 a.m. to get up for work the next day, then personally I'm for anything that will get me home earlier. Why have a guy walk to the table, get down on a shot, and purposely hit it into a pocket (or even a few inches for that matter)?

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that you can nearly always improve things by taking some kind of a shot, even if it's driving an opponents ball to a rail or into a cluster. I see many people hand over a cue ball with many balls still on the table. In that situation you know that there is something you can do to make their situation worse before you give them ball-in-hand.

Maniac
 
I have always thought that just picking up the cue ball is not a legal shot and is a foul. And the incoming player can put the cue ball back to where he thinks it was and shoot from there. I also do think that is could be considered unsportsman like and cause for a loss of game. In any case, you played your shots legally and correctly and was rewarded for them.

Southpaw
 
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