legality of 2nd ball 8 ball break

I don't think breaking to the first ball and trying to park the cue ball to the center of the table is the best thing in eight ball on the bar table.

Breaking this way will require a fair amout of power to spread the balls thus controling the cue ball may not happen. Besides with a full rack of balls the chances of a ball colliding with the cue ball are great.

I would be nice to have the cue ball wind up in the middle of the table but this is not so important in eight ball. In rotation games it is very important because you are after one specific ball and access to it may be best from the middle of the table.

On the bar table I like breaking the second ball even with rules that you don't win with the eight on the break.

I feel that my percentages of making a ball and controling the cue ball are greater with the second ball and yes there may be more clutter but I don't mind because this is what eight ball is all about.
 
R Givens not a Marxist

Secaucus Fats said:
Gregg said:
Never heard of R. Givens...
QUOTE]

R. Givens is the author of "The Eight Ball Bible" -- a guide to bar table play.

Fats
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Never fear. I am almost certain that Givens is not a Marxist. However, I did benefit from his explication on the dialectical relationship between the strategies of "break & run" vs "defense." Perhaps he read Hegel instead of Marx, but then again-who knows.
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On a barbox I use the 2nd ball break almost religiously. If done consistently I find the CB goes to the side rail and back into the rack. Definitely gets the 8-ball moving. The problem I have sometimes is almost all the balls finish on one side of the table in a HUGE cluster. This leads to some interesting games......
 
berlowmj said:
Secaucus Fats said:
What do you think of the book?
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It is worth the price for people who play on bar boxes, imho.

If you already know 8-ball, some is redundant, but there are quite a few tidbits there.

One caveat is his advice on choosing the corner vs. the side pocket. I began to choose the corner more often and this created a little lull in my ability to pot in the sides. But I've worked that out.

The best thing about pool books is that most players won't read them. So, if you find even just one thing in a pool book, you've got a great advantage over your competition (or is it "comrades" :) )

Jeff Livingston
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Scott Lee said:
R. Givens book, as good as it is, is strictly about playing 8-ball on a 7' barbox. It doesn't pertain to playing on 9' tables, which is where most pro play happens. Regardless of table size, the most consistent break happens by hitting the head ball square, and controlling the CB. This gives the best opportunity to disperse the energy from the break shot completely into the rack, and leaving none on the CB (assuming you hit the CB with dead center...no top, bottom, right or left). The 2nd ball break cannot be played with center ball, as it is a natural scratch...so most people juice it up with a lot of draw and english. When you break this way, you get a less effecient transfer of energy (since there will be lots of spin on the CB after contact with the rack, which is energy that could have been used to spread the balls more), and subsequently a lesser chance of pocketing a ball and controlling the CB. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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When you say that "the most consistent break occurs by hitting the head ball square...", are you referring to breaking from the long rail or from the head spot (or anywhere along the head string)? Just wanted to clarify your comment. Are there any locations along the head string where one can get the "best results" (hitting the head ball square)?

Some other posters have indicated that they break from the long rail into the into the 2nd ball of the rack, in the hopes of making the 8. Lately, I've been experimenting with the 2nd ball break in trying to mitigate soft (slug) racks. As mentioned by other posters, it seems like balls tend to cluster more with the 2nd ball break and the final location of the cue ball is much more difficult to control.
 
I will bet money that the people on here that don't advocate use of the second ball break in 8 ball on a bar table either don't play 8ball very often or haven't seen it played at a very high level.

Just go to any of the big tournaments in Vegas and watch the Masters and Grand Masters play 8 ball. At least half of them will be using the 2nd ball break.

It's just not about putting the most force into the rack, it's about making a ball. Clusters or not, top 8 ball players will get out most of the time on a bar box if they make a ball on the break. If you don't believe me, just watch Stan Torango (I probably spelled that wrong) or Kirkwood or any of those guys. Cue ball position in the middle of the table would be nice but it's not required, remember you can shoot at anything after the break.
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
I will bet money that the people on here that don't advocate use of the second ball break in 8 ball on a bar table either don't play 8ball very often or haven't seen it played at a very high level.

QUOTE]


There are times when the head ball break just won't work. I watched all the 8-ball the IPT website offers, and there are a lot more runout from dry breaks than B&Rs. It would have been nice for the players to be able to change it up after continually hitting the balls perfect, with no results.
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"book knowledge"

chefjeff said:
berlowmj said:
The best thing about pool books is that most players won't read them. So, if you find even just one thing in a pool book, you've got a great advantage over your competition (or is it "comrades" :) )

Jeff Livingston
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That is reassuring, since this forum along with books are my only viable sources of knowledge. Both have helped me progress. Occasionally, I get a pointer from another player, but for the most part they want to impress me with rarely utilized tactics (bordering on trick shots) rather than basics.

I am limited to playing in a local bar & a recreation center in "the city." Alcohol flows too freely in both places & I must exert Herculean restraint not to shoot out the jukeboxes.

Nevertheless, I am thoroughly addicted to the game & have gained a bit of respect for my ability. I'm sure that the least skilled among you would have me racking 98% of the time.

R. Givens' major contribution to my game has been his explication on the dialectical relationship between "break & run strategies" & "defense" along with the 2nd ball break option.
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QUOTE]There are times when the head ball break just won't work. I watched all the 8-ball the IPT website offers, and there are a lot more runout from dry breaks than B&Rs. It would have been nice for the players to be able to change it up after continually hitting the balls perfect, with no results.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Also, the main reason to use the 2nd ball break IS NOT to make the 8 ball on the break.

I think I read on here a while back a couple of folks claiming to be able to make the 8 ball on the break 1 out of 20 times. I'll bet against that too with a minimum of 100 breaks.. that way if I'm wrong at least the guy's arm might fall off.
 
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