legallity of nine ball push out shot

bmoretallpaul said:
in the game of nine ball. after the break. is it legal to play a push out by contacting the lowest number ball on the table first. it seems to me that if you can hit that ball then you should be shooting a skilled shot of some sort and not a push out.
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Here is the push out rule. It's pretty clear from the rule that you can do pretty much anything that complies with the rules that are not suspended.

2.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.​
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is the push out rule. It's pretty clear from the rule that you can do pretty much anything that complies with the rules that are not suspended.

2.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.​
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If a foul has been committed on the break shot, does the incoming player still have the option to play a "push out" as his/her shot?
 
alstl said:
It is hard for me to think of a way that would work to the advantage of the shooter. You are giving the opponent the option of shooting or giving it back. Sounds like a bad idea to me.
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99% of the time I'm sure your right, but in this game layouts are Never the same twice, ever.
 
PoloBob said:
If a foul has been committed on the break shot, does the incoming player still have the option to play a "push out" as his/her shot?
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No. I think the rule would not have said "If no foul is committed on the break shot" if that were not a requirement for a push out.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is the push out rule. It's pretty clear from the rule that you can do pretty much anything that complies with the rules that are not suspended.

2.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.​
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Bob, Thanks for answering the question by stating the rule: this validates the response. The "I think", and "we always play" answers really are confusing to those who really want the answer.

You are very professional.
 
randyg said:
If you declare "push out".

1. You have to make a legal stroke on the cue ball.
2. You may or may not strike any ball(s).
3. If you hit the lowest number ball on the table it is still a "push out".
4. You have given up the right to advance unless you are told to shoot again.


randyg
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Best explained IMHO same with 10ball I believe, unless you are gambling with modded rules saying that push outs are not an option in either game.

-Drew
 
Bob Jewett said:
Here is the push out rule. It's pretty clear from the rule that you can do pretty much anything that complies with the rules that are not suspended.

2.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out
If no foul is committed on the break shot, the shooter may choose to play a “push out” as his shot. He must make his intention known to the referee, and then rules 6.2 Wrong Ball First and 6.3 No Rail after Contact are suspended for the shot. If no foul is committed on a push out, the other player chooses who will shoot next.​
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PoloBob said:
If a foul has been committed on the break shot, does the incoming player still have the option to play a "push out" as his/her shot?
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Bob Jewett said:
No. I think the rule would not have said "If no foul is committed on the break shot" if that were not a requirement for a push out.
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Tennesseejoe said:
Bob, Thanks for answering the question by stating the rule: this validates the response. The "I think", and "we always play" answers really are confusing to those who really want the answer.

You are very professional.
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Hmmmmmmmmm:D.

ONB
 
Pushout said:
Yes, and if you don't think that the push out is a skill shot, think again! Whether you are playing current rules or the old style pushout game of 9 ball, it's still a skill shot, much more so than many people today give it credit for.
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Pushouts, especially in 2-foul 9 Ball, certainly required skill when shooting other than the lowest ball on the table to pushout but mostly the pushout was a matter of knowledge. Knowing where to push, when to push and what you were going to shoot if told to shoot again. You also needed to know your opponents abilities, particularly if giving or receiving weight. All these things and more had to be factored in to your decisions, as you clearly know. When you played someone who always pushed out to the 50 yard line, making you think about the push, then you knew you were playing a knowledgeable player.

ONB
 
Old Nine Baller said:
Joe,

I grasped the import of your post, I just thought it kinda funny that Bob answered the question by saying an emphatic "no" and then continued "I think".

No offense intended toward either one of you:).




ONB
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LOL... just a little laugh back...you are an asset to the forum.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
His wording is a little to tricky ...
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The wording of the rule is a little tricky. Many people have trouble with "If ... then ..." sorts of constructions, both writers and readers. While the phrase "If no foul is committed on the break shot..." will be unambiguous in that context to most people, a less ambiguous way to say it would be "If and only if no foul is committed on the break shot..." but I think a lot of readers who are not familiar with mathematical logic and rhetoric would stub their toes on that construction.

Another approach would be to get more verbose and devote a whole sentence to what happens if there is a foul, but the rules are already long enough. In writing the rules there is a difficult balance between brevity and clarity -- both are important.

Bob Jewett
Chief Editor, 2008 World Standardized Rules of Pool
 
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