Good question. I do both, pull and push the cue through, depending on what's needed for the shot. A classic non-elbow drop shot is a pull. An elbow drop is a push. There are also small, half-stroke-type shots that I consider to be a push---even though there is no elbow drop---because the arm isn't swinging far enough for it to actually be pulling.
Letting the cue slide ?
- Thread starter JoeyInCali
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Good question. I do both, pull and push the cue through, depending on what's needed for the shot. A classic non-elbow drop shot is a pull. An elbow drop is a push. There are also small, half-stroke-type shots that I consider to be a push---even though there is no elbow drop---because the arm isn't swinging far enough for it to actually be pulling.
Thanks for the reply. Sorry if it seemed that I high jacked the thread.
That was not my intention.
Interesting stuff.
Maybe after the week off you stopped trusting yourself.
Here's an interesting thread from 3 years ago on "throwing" the cue stick (stroke slip): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=109237
Yes, Gene Nagy was an innovator. He took the idea of the Filipino release to a whole new level and literally threw the cue. Gene's experiments would last for years and this one was no exception. I did watch him do amazing things and make shots that looked like they weren't supposed to go, but it's not a practical way to shoot pool. Besides the fact that it makes you look like a freak, it's hard on the equipment --- his shaft was loaded with dings --- and throwing the cue sometimes makes extremely loud and disruptive noises.
Just for the record, I usually catch the throw. If I'm sprawled out over the table with no rail in the way and I wanna zap a break shot - I might release it completely.
One thing I have to admit, when you have the release down it's impossible to stroke crooked. If you're locked on your aim and release, the ball is def gonna drop.
I never met Gene and I wish he were still alive. I have SO many questions for him. Smart man. Thanks and RIP, Gene.
Dave
p.s. I almost formed an ulcer reading that cue throw thread completely. Ugh....
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Gene was one of my closest friends and if you like, feel free to ask any questions. Chances are that I asked Gene the same thing and I'll tell you what he said. It's not like talking to him directly, I know, but it's pretty close.
Yes, there were some pretty ugly and harsh things said about throwing the cue. Luckliy for us, Gene had much more of an open mind than those posters do.
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I think it's the purest way of striking the cue, personally. Outside of Ron Vitello, you might be the only advocate on this site other than me. Most people RUSH to knocking it without really understanding it; whereas, I've played a good 5-6 years with it experimenting with how it works.
Some of the questions I'd have for Gene are:
- What bridge length did he use?
- How did he hold the cue with his back-hand? Same as usual or did he adjust his back-hand to facilitate the throw?
- Rail shots: Did he throw on those as well? If so, how'd he prevent the tip from rising?
Thanks, Fran for your input. Throwing my cue (cue slide or complete release) has definitely made me a stronger player.
Dave
Hi Spidey,
a bit longer ago someone asked me if i perhaps can help him with his stroke. It was a 3c player. Then I explained him how I see it, and how I would recommend to *build* it in his case. I showed him the principles of the pendulum stroke, how he should be aligned etc- and then told him something about *letting the cue go*. It was kind of similar Fran shown up above- I just don t tell somebody to *let it completely go*- I try to show, how important the perfect setup-position is. And explain someone how the stroke should stop naturally at its anatomical end. Imo it s both exactly the same- just with the difference that some guys let it slip somehow a bit more and I would say that the cue stops naturally somewhere. Depends a bit on how tight or loose the grip is.
The result should , that the player have to understand, that the cue has to *do the work*, and that it s weight is enough to make almost every shot on the table, just with the right acceleration. I always try here to explain a bit longer so that she/he sees how easy it can be, and how important it is,
Just my 2 cents
Take care Dave,
Ingo
a bit longer ago someone asked me if i perhaps can help him with his stroke. It was a 3c player. Then I explained him how I see it, and how I would recommend to *build* it in his case. I showed him the principles of the pendulum stroke, how he should be aligned etc- and then told him something about *letting the cue go*. It was kind of similar Fran shown up above- I just don t tell somebody to *let it completely go*- I try to show, how important the perfect setup-position is. And explain someone how the stroke should stop naturally at its anatomical end. Imo it s both exactly the same- just with the difference that some guys let it slip somehow a bit more and I would say that the cue stops naturally somewhere. Depends a bit on how tight or loose the grip is.
The result should , that the player have to understand, that the cue has to *do the work*, and that it s weight is enough to make almost every shot on the table, just with the right acceleration. I always try here to explain a bit longer so that she/he sees how easy it can be, and how important it is,
Just my 2 cents
Take care Dave,
Ingo
I think you're correct. I think the benefit of the throw/slide is that you can't steer the shot. The cue travels on a vector from the moment of release. It's my personal opinion, however you stroke (elbow drop, pendulum, piston, whatever), it's not as straight as a throw.
That said, I don't believe a slide/throw is right with every shot or that it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Much of this discussion on "stroke" is based on philosophy. One can stroke crooked on every single shot and still run out (swooping, whatever you call it).
Happy to help Dave. It brings back fond memories of Gene. To answer your questions:
Bridge Length: It varied, depending on the shot --- shorter for short shots and longer for long shots. I would say his bridge length was the same as it was before he started throwing the cue.
Back hand grip: He cradled the cue with the last three fingers, sometimes the last two on delicate shots. He took all of the pressure off of his thumb and index finger and kept them pointed down. They barely touched the cue. At first he released the whole cue but as he experimented he started perfecting the throw while hanging on to the cue only with his pinkie to avoid having the cue foul other balls. However, on some shots he continued the total release. It depended on the shot. I remember that he would compeletely let go on tough cut shots and I would watch him make table length extremely low percentage shots over and over with a total release. He hung on to the cue with the smaller shots and those where he had a greater margin for error.
Rail shots: He did throw on those shots and allowed the tip to rise. That didn't bother him. He kept his bridge hand secure, as he did with other shots as well, in order to control the falling cue stick. On rail shots, the tip would rise and often the cue would slide to the floor along side the table in an upright standing position. It was his bridge hand that controlled that and kept the cue from hitting the floor flat. He was constantly figuring out new techinques to allow him to throw the cue and still make legal shots.
I remember in a WPBA tournament, I was faced with an extremely thin cut shot near the head string along the side rail, practically 90 degrees, and I knew that the only chance I had to make the cut and draw the cb all the way down table for the next shot would be to throw the cue. So, I threw it. It hit table and then fell on the floor with a loud noise and the crowd all thought I had some kind of accident with the cue, but the shot went and the cb drew all the way down the diagonal of the table for perfect shape. I just pretended it slipped out of my hand by accident. Haha.
Well I finally understand what you guys (Dave and Fran) are saying. Actually and totally releasing the cue. Spearing the CB. Well I've only done that by accident. But my point is my grip is just this side of a full release. Never thought of letting it drop to the table on purpose.
And Fran, your description of Gene's front fingers opening and pointing to the floor is exactly what Sims did and kinda what I do. I'm not as graceful but I guess Dave you must agree looks isn't everything.
I wonder if there was a way to suspend a cue from 2 strings and just let it swing to an exact spot, say hitting Low and measuring velocity at impact vs somone stroking at the same velocity. That may solve the theory.
And Fran, your description of Gene's front fingers opening and pointing to the floor is exactly what Sims did and kinda what I do. I'm not as graceful but I guess Dave you must agree looks isn't everything.
I wonder if there was a way to suspend a cue from 2 strings and just let it swing to an exact spot, say hitting Low and measuring velocity at impact vs somone stroking at the same velocity. That may solve the theory.
Fascinating info regarding Gene's back hand. That's super helpful. His rail technique must be the same as mine --- I was just curious if he found a better way.
For me, your post is loaded with REALLY important info. Sadly, I'm probably the only guy on here who will benefit. If I ever meet you in person, I owe you a beer
Thanks!
I'd rather look goofy and win all the time versus looking like Tom Cruise and playing like an APA 4.
Add me to the list. Are you forgetting my support when you started that thread 3 years ago?
Very sorry - you're right. I didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. I was just saying it's a shame that many won't play around with this stuff. I've found it to be super helpful.
Dave