Liar, Liar case on fire...

I will personally skip the fire test.....and just buy AMERICAN

Your choice but has nothing to do with the topic. I will do the fire test and allow others to hopefully see that a case made in China can also be as protective. Then those with a lot less money than you who are looking for the best value for their money can have some more information when they choose.

Thanks for your support when you gave it. We were glad to be able to have helped you out when you needed cases.

"I have about 60 GTF 1x2 cases.....I absolutely LOVE them

I use mine to store a lot of my collectable cues, and they are perfect for the job.

My cues are secure, well protected and in a nice compact case, its everything I wanted" - Steve


I am personally sad that I seem to have offended you somehow but that's life and people choose to do what they do based in part on their own sensibilities. At least when you needed cases for your collection we were able to take care of you satisfactorily at the time and thank goodness none of the cases were subjected to a fire to test their protection under that condition.
 
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I have a GTF 1x2 and it's as nice as my George, Thomas or Fellini but I must say I try to buy American made first, Dollar for Dollar the GTF is the better buy. JMHO
 
Even if someone is an "I buy nothing but American", they must not own a TV, any other electronic devices, and be using a computer at the public library. If not, then they're also buying non-American goods. Hell, try and find a car or truck.. no matter the make, that is anything close to 100% "American". But, people who wish to buy things that are capable of being 100% American made, more power to them. I do love when such people talk about all American, then have a cue with a "Spanish bull" wrap, or something of the sort. I guess buying 100% American is only good when convenient.

Chris
 
Even if someone is an "I buy nothing but American", they must not own a TV, any other electronic devices, and be using a computer at the public library. If not, then they're also buying non-American goods. Hell, try and find a car or truck.. no matter the make, that is anything close to 100% "American". But, people who wish to buy things that are capable of being 100% American made, more power to them. I do love when such people talk about all American, then have a cue with a "Spanish bull" wrap, or something of the sort. I guess buying 100% American is only good when convenient.

Chris

It's cool Chris. What people mostly mean I think is that they prefer to buy American when it's convenient for them. They don't mind selling to the world but they don't want to buy from the world UNLESS of course it's something that they really want or need like an Ipad or a computer, or a nice digital camera to take cue pictures.

I also try to buy local when I can and it's not for any loyalty reason or any kind of charity for local businesses. When I choose to buy local it is for my own convenience. I want to deal with as many people as I can whom I can talk to and get the merchandise pretty much within the hour most of the time. If that's not possible then I cast a wider net. Sometimes the goods from farther away are the same but significantly less money so I go that route. Sometimes the quality of goods elsewhere is much better so I go that route. But as a general rule I try to source what I want locally first.

If the local option provides me with the goods, service and convenience that make sense to me financially then that's the one I choose. Pretty simple way to live and it insures that I am not bound up with emotion or a sketchy sense of economics when making my buying choices.

I have often heard that one should support goods made in their country because it keeps the money here. Then I go to a cue maker's house and he has a giant tv made in Korea among other foreign goods. My point is now and always has been that this sort of thinking is destructive because it's imposisble to follow the money and if you pay more for something JUST BECAUSE of where it was made then you are effectively deciding to give a charitable donation to the maker without any clue as to what is going to be done with that money. Which is fine as long as you are clear that the money could be spent on something that was not made in the USA.

I just focus on making products that are a great value and let the customers compare. When I sell a case for $600 and the next closest case to what I made is $900 then the customer has $300 more in their pocket to do with as they will is how I see it.

To bring this back to cases,

Here is a red gator print GTF case for sale at www.gtfcases.com for $220. - Made in China

P-1x2-A032-Red-Gator-dup.jpg


The nearest new equivalent is a brown gator print Thomas found at www.recollectioncues.com for $375 - Made in the USA

610_Brown_Croc_Thomas.jpg


Now, in my opinion and in the opinion of many others, the quality is at least the same between these two cases. I certainly feel that the GTF is better for several reasons but for the purpose of the discussion lets assume that they are equally good.

$375 is approximately 70% more than $220. It's $155 dollars more. For someone like Steve this is nothing, maybe about how I might feel about spending $10 extra dollars on something. But for someone else maybe this is money that could be better spent elsewhere. Maybe it means the cool case for dad AND something cool for mom this Christmas. Or whatever, the what if scenarios can be played out all day but the point is that the consumer gets to decide where to spend that extra money and not the seller.

That's the simple economics of it. I can't really do anything about the emotional side of the issue nor the incorrect economic thinking that clouds the issue other than to simply tell my take on it and let the customer decide for themselves. I don't manipulate with guilt trips and false comparisons. I put the product out there at the price that makes sense for us and most of the time that price happens to be lower than my competitors which given our quality makes them a great value.

One thing we offer as well is the customization. We just finished a case for a GTF customer that is purple. Since we are now pretty good at using thinner veg tan leather, almost a nappa softness, we can and do color dye it to any color the customer desires.

This was the cue we did the case for:

Tonkin%2013.JPG


This is the case with hand finished ends.

a.jpg

b.jpg

c.jpg


Total price for this custom case with our Fellini-style hand finished ends?

$375 shipped from our shop in China directly to the customer.

I sincerely hope that this GTF/Tonkin combo never has to endure the type of trauma that the Fellini/Bushka had to but if it does end up in a fire I hope that it protects just as well.

Total cost including shipping directly from our workshop in China - $375 for a case with the hand-finished ends instead of the press-on It's George style endcaps.

This is what the customer had to say about it when he got it last week.

"Hi Karen,

I hope you are feeling better and hopefully you are out of the Hospital!

I got the case today and it is stunning---absolutely beautiful.

Thanks so much,"
 
The whole thing that gets me, is the complete and utter hypocrisy of some people here. The fact that the "Buy American" is used only when convenient bothers me. I know I will change no one's mind, and be on a few shit lists. But, I don't care. In the billiard world, you can actually decide to buy only American made goods. But even then, while the craftsmanship and parts are American, what about the wood, leather wraps, and ivory. You have BRAZILIAN rosewood, MADAGASCAR ebony, elephant ear wrap, ivory from elephants or another animal that is not native to America. So, even though you bought a 100% American cue, many of the products used to make that cue come from other countries, and the money trail ends there. I guess the ones with the problem here only see China as the place not to buy from. I'll keep buying whatever is most cost effective for me, especially when it's of equal or greater value.

Chris
 
Yes Chris.

The ironic part is that the Japanese and Taiwanese buyers put a LOT of money into American cue maker's and American cue dealer's pockets through the 90s and early 2000s. As well the German buyers have also bought a healthy amount of cues from American makers and dealers. Now when a maker like KeithAndy in Japan starts making fantastic cues he should be cut off from the American market according to some folks. That doesn't make sense to me and is kind of mean.
 
Yes Chris.

The ironic part is that the Japanese and Taiwanese buyers put a LOT of money into American cue maker's and American cue dealer's pockets through the 90s and early 2000s. As well the German buyers have also bought a healthy amount of cues from American makers and dealers. Now when a maker like KeithAndy in Japan starts making fantastic cues he should be cut off from the American market according to some folks. That doesn't make sense to me and is kind of mean.

It's funny. I seems like it's ONLY China that anyone has a problem with. Go a bit east to the Philippines, and people rave about JD Custom cues, or one of the many Bautistas that are still there making cues. It almost seems like when anything from Japan was thought of as worse than second rate. I know I'm showing my age here, but that's how it was. Just look at goods made in Japan now as far as how sought after and high quality they are. I guess one country always has to be "THE ONE" that everyone gets to bash until another comes along. But, you just keep making your "second rate, crappy Chinese cases", and we'll keep buying them =)

Chris
 
Hey

after buying 60 chinese cases you have now decided to just buy american.

anything wrong with any of those 60 chinese cases >


I did buy them...and I did use them.....and then I decided to sell them all and go AMERICAN.....which I did. And I am proud of it
 
I did buy them...and I did use them.....and then I decided to sell them all and go AMERICAN.....which I did. And I am proud of it

Just curious, what was your reason for selling them and "go American" and what did you purchase in replace? If you don't mind me asking.
 
Anybody want to give me some guidance on doing this test? I really don't want to burn down a neighborhood or anything. Would it be best to use a blowtorch or would that be too specifically directed at one spot?

I am not a firebug and ever since I set the kitchen table on fire when I was ten or so I have been a bit afraid of starting fires. Now there are pits around here where people burn trash so maybe if I piled up a bunch of wood there and used some gas to get it going??

Not looking forward to burning up some good leather but in the interest of science and marketing anything goes.... :-)
 
Anybody want to give me some guidance on doing this test? I really don't want to burn down a neighborhood or anything. Would it be best to use a blowtorch or would that be too specifically directed at one spot?

I am not a firebug and ever since I set the kitchen table on fire when I was ten or so I have been a bit afraid of starting fires. Now there are pits around here where people burn trash so maybe if I piled up a bunch of wood there and used some gas to get it going??

Not looking forward to burning up some good leather but in the interest of science and marketing anything goes.... :-)

As you're testing to see if the case can stand having the leather burned all the way through, with heat enough to warp the case, I think the blowtorch would be your best bet.. especially as it's directional and you can control it easily. What you will have to do is keep the flame a good ways away, rather that applying the greatest amount of heat directly at the case. In the pictures that Joe posted, it was obvious that the heat was more of a slow burn. I have no idea how many cases you'll go through to get the desired effect, but IMO you'd want the heat high, but only as close as it needs to be for the leather to start showing signs of burning. Once that occurs, it's time to sit back and wait until the leather is burned as badly as it was in Joe's post. Not being a pyromaniac, I can only give educated guesses. One thing that might have happened with the case in question, is that it was lying on metal that was being heated from the other side and transferring the heat to the case. So, you have a myriad of ways to try it. Again, as it appears the case Joe showed wasn't flash burned, a slow heating/burning would seem the most correct type of test. That would also account for the warping of the tube.

Chris
 
As you're testing to see if the case can stand having the leather burned all the way through, with heat enough to warp the case, I think the blowtorch would be your best bet.. especially as it's directional and you can control it easily. What you will have to do is keep the flame a good ways away, rather that applying the greatest amount of heat directly at the case. In the pictures that Joe posted, it was obvious that the heat was more of a slow burn. I have no idea how many cases you'll go through to get the desired effect, but IMO you'd want the heat high, but only as close as it needs to be for the leather to start showing signs of burning. Once that occurs, it's time to sit back and wait until the leather is burned as badly as it was in Joe's post. Not being a pyromaniac, I can only give educated guesses. One thing that might have happened with the case in question, is that it was lying on metal that was being heated from the other side and transferring the heat to the case. So, you have a myriad of ways to try it. Again, as it appears the case Joe showed wasn't flash burned, a slow heating/burning would seem the most correct type of test. That would also account for the warping of the tube.

Chris

Over here we have industrial heat guns, like really hot blow dryers. Maybe two of these on the sides and a torch for the flame would provide the amount of heat needed to deform the tube while the flame could burn through the leather and melt the tube.

I am wondering if the tube was subjected to high heat before the flames got to it?

I only had one case where a person told me a story of their Instroke being in a fire and the cues inside also survived. I had never thought to build cases to withstand fire but why not find out what they can take anyway?

I have been wanting to buy one of these heat guns anyway so this seems like a good excuse. Although I am also leaning towards the fire pit but I am not sure if that will be enough heat to properly simulate the test. I guess if I leave the case in long enough to the point where the leather is burning through and the plastic begins to melt that this would be sufficient.
 
Over here we have industrial heat guns, like really hot blow dryers. Maybe two of these on the sides and a torch for the flame would provide the amount of heat needed to deform the tube while the flame could burn through the leather and melt the tube.

I am wondering if the tube was subjected to high heat before the flames got to it?

I only had one case where a person told me a story of their Instroke being in a fire and the cues inside also survived. I had never thought to build cases to withstand fire but why not find out what they can take anyway?

I have been wanting to buy one of these heat guns anyway so this seems like a good excuse. Although I am also leaning towards the fire pit but I am not sure if that will be enough heat to properly simulate the test. I guess if I leave the case in long enough to the point where the leather is burning through and the plastic begins to melt that this would be sufficient.

From the looks of the case that started this thread, if the tube melted in the area that the leather was gone, it did so just barely. Without the exact situation known, you'll basically be going in blind. But, going in blind may not be a bad thing, as you are then able to do your tests under a variety of circumstances. The more I think about it, the more I think it was likely a flash type fire to the case. If it had been a slow cook and burn, I really don't see the wood surviving, as it burns at a MUCH lower temperature than either the leather or the PVC. But, only your tests will tell, and now you'll have more toys at your disposal.. in the name of scientific discovery, of course =)

Chris
 
No, we have a case that took on a fire, now its your turn. Find someone willing to put in a Bushka. The benchmark is already set.

JV

I understand your point but you seem to be missing something that matters tremendously in this equation. Fires are not created equally. Not even close!

You would have to put the cases in the same fire for the same length of time for what your saying to work. That's just common sense
 
Even if someone is an "I buy nothing but American", they must not own a TV, any other electronic devices, and be using a computer at the public library. If not, then they're also buying non-American goods. Hell, try and find a car or truck.. no matter the make, that is anything close to 100% "American". But, people who wish to buy things that are capable of being 100% American made, more power to them. I do love when such people talk about all American, then have a cue with a "Spanish bull" wrap, or something of the sort. I guess buying 100% American is only good when convenient.

Chris

You are correct! People look so foolish when they make those types of statements. I get a real kick out of some arrogant guy trying to sound like he is better than others for choosing an American built whatever. Such hypocrites!
 
Yo

Arrogant....Hypocrite....because you don't agree, what a shame.

I STILL SAY BUY AMERICAN
 
Arrogant....Hypocrite....because you don't agree, what a shame.

I STILL SAY BUY AMERICAN



Really?

How many American made TV's do you own? What about Cell Phones? Or any other piece of electronics. Do you drive a Chrysler or a Ford? Mercedes and Lexus are not made here. What about your clothes? Are they made in America too? Exactly!

Hypocrite!
 
Buying American, if that is what one wishes, when presented with a reasonable choice to do so is not hypocritical even when one is not presented with such reasonable choices for other purchases.

I believe advocating such a thing is not hypocritical either, even in the face of the fact that in many cases there are no reasonable possibilities of making such a purchase.

It is an idea, it is an ideal, and it is not without merit.

Personally I don't see our national borders in that way and feel that we must earn our keep based on the merits of our work and not through nationalism. That notwithstanding I do find the origin of a product to occasionally factor into my purchase decisions. Occasionally I am able to buy American quite intentionally, and on those occasions I feel quite justified in my decision. It is interesting, and distressing, to note how often that really isn't possible for me.

I simply don't value the welfare of one person over another based on the nation they happen to live and work in. I am proud of my country though, and proud to support it...obviously for my own good and the good of those close to me, as well as for more idealistic (patriotic) reasons.



What I am most concerned with in this thread is the very real possibility that an expensive case is going to be torched for virtually no reason other than sensationalism. I do not believe that by any stretch there is any scientific or technical data of any real validity to be gained by this exercise. After spending my life in the sciences and in serious pursuit of such data something like this looks like nothing more than a stunt.

Maybe to some people it isn't expensive. To me it is.

I have wished for such a case for years and simply cannot afford it. The thought of seeing one intentionally torched like this turns my stomach. Send it to me instead and I can promise that it will be treated properly, cared for, and not abused in such a way.

Anyway, that's all I have to say about this. I guess you folks can go back to what you were doing. Perhaps you will be toasting a Black Boar tomorrow, maybe a cue by Barry, or perhaps another custom case? You know....just to see what happens to it....

I don't think I can stand to watch though.....

JB, you make great cases. Some people aren't going to like them simply because of where they are made. Some people aren't going to like them simply because of something they perceive about you. They have every right to feel that way, and you have every right not to like it.


Please don't burn the case.

If you want to send it to somebody who will love it and care for it, send it to me. If you don't like sending it to me, then send it so somebody less fortunate that needs a case.

If you like, raffle it off for charity. My son it autistic. It is estimated it costs $100,000.00 per year to raise an autistic child. There is a lot of good that can be done, a lot of families that need help.

Please don't burn the case.



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