Can you get more draw on the cue ball with a loose grip or a tight grip?
Loose or Tight Grip
- Thread starter Tennesseejoe
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I think it mostly comes down to how much stick speed (with the required accuracy) you can develop. I think the tension of a tight grip reduces the maximum you can get. I also think that's why it's important to have a wrap that helps your grip hand not to slip with a relatively loose grip.
Well, Bob, when you're 6'4" tall and wear a 38" sleeved shirt, you don't have to worry about whether your loose grip will slip on a wrap! 
All kidding aside, one thing that has never happened to me is... MY DRAW HAS NEVER BEEN BROKEN! It ALWAYS works... sometimes too well. I can suck the ball back exceptionally well and I use an extremely loose grip. I agree with Bob in that a tighter grip may inhibit you're getting higher stick speed with accuracy.
Bob
All kidding aside, one thing that has never happened to me is... MY DRAW HAS NEVER BEEN BROKEN! It ALWAYS works... sometimes too well. I can suck the ball back exceptionally well and I use an extremely loose grip. I agree with Bob in that a tighter grip may inhibit you're getting higher stick speed with accuracy.
Bob
Agree, it doesn't really matter, just a result of stick speed. Typically a looser grip allows the wrist to work more naturally to produce the most speed. Power draws might be tough with a very tight grip, but normal table length or less draws would certainly not be an issue.
Scott
Scott
Yup,
the key is to be able to hit the point on whitey with the highest speed you can really control. I m a believer of a relaxed grip- And til now all went good .
But there s also not *the one and only grip*- too many variations works for several guys. But in my opinion with a loose and relaxed grip the cueball and the cue is just much easier *to control*.
the key is to be able to hit the point on whitey with the highest speed you can really control. I m a believer of a relaxed grip- And til now all went good
. But there s also not *the one and only grip*- too many variations works for several guys. But in my opinion with a loose and relaxed grip the cueball and the cue is just much easier *to control*.
I'm no instructor, so be aware.. When I try a long draw I tend hit hard and tighten (clench) my grip on the forward stroke. This causes me to inadvertently hit the cue ball higher then I'd like - thus not the draw I'd hoped for. Recently I've been experimenting with a softer stroke and focusing on hitting the cue ball as low as possible. It's really surprising what a nice, long draw you can get with a soft stroke if you just hit the ball on the right spot. A light, fluid grip helps me hit the right spot. Now, if I can just hit that spot with a harder stroke without clenching..
Great question. From the above responses it appears that nobody knows for sure. I don't either.
There is something I learned from Ray Schuler about a transfer of power from a tighter grip on the cue, (which I'm thinking may affect amount of draw --- in theory) but I'm not sure.
Bottom line is force = mass x accelleration. If the force is directed to the proper point on the cue ball, low, then it is whatever allows one to generate the most force.
This may not make much sense, but I play under humid conditions in S.E. Louisiana & most of the time a wristy 'popping' stroke usually works very well for me. That being said, on certain occasions, it does not work well enough. On those occassions, I have to employ a firmer, more driving stroke through the cue ball & then the appropriate draw is there for the taking.
I hope this helps. It's just my $0.02.
Regards,
This may not make much sense, but I play under humid conditions in S.E. Louisiana & most of the time a wristy 'popping' stroke usually works very well for me. That being said, on certain occasions, it does not work well enough. On those occassions, I have to employ a firmer, more driving stroke through the cue ball & then the appropriate draw is there for the taking.
I hope this helps. It's just my $0.02.
Regards,
short answer: You need a loose grip to get max draw.
When you shoot, make sure that the top of your tip strikes the cue ball, you can vary the angle of the cue, but for more draw with a lot less force, visualize the top of the tip contacting the cue ball, this works very well, you may be pleasantly surprised, C J Wiley posted this earlier in one of his excellent posts.
I think this is a red herring. If you draw the cue ball you will certainly be hitting the ball with the top of the tip (top relative to the floor-ceiling direction). Do you imagine that someone would try to draw the cue ball by hitting it with the bottom of their tip?
Perhaps you meant something other than what you wrote.
I'm not an instructor, but I did once sleep with a physics professor.
What you are proposing is not what happens in reality. All that can occur is to transfer momentum from the cue to the CB. If what you are saying was true, a big guy like me with granite fingers should be able to get that old CB going about 100 MPH. Fact is, before the CB can sense any firmness in your grip, it is already well on its way.
I'm not an instructor, but I did once sleep with a physics professor.
What you are proposing is not what happens in reality. All that can occur is to transfer momentum from the cue to the CB. If what you are saying was true, a big guy like me with granite fingers should be able to get that old CB going about 100 MPH. Fact is, before the CB can sense any firmness in your grip, it is already well on its way.
Mr. Pockets,
What you say could very well be reasonably true, but what about the cushioning factor of the same force when delivered to the CB vs. being delevered with a firm wrist & grip. What I'm asking is...will the transfer of force be the same, that is, the same mass x same acceleration but delivered by different connection to the generator of the force. Or...can more force be transfered by a firm connection upon impact & through impact? That is a less cushioned delivering, similiar to a soft tip vs a hard tip.
Regards,
Loose, level, and low...those are the hallmarks of consistent draw on the CB.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I look at this issue this way.
Imagine the cue stick as a musical instrument. A percussion instrument to be exact. If you were to have a cymbal loosely hanging and strike it, the sound it makes will have a nice ring to it and reverberate for a considerable time. The moment the cymbal is grasped all vibration from the instrument is lost. I believe a pool cue works the same way. The shock wave generated by the hit should run through the entire cue twice. Once from tip to butt and then back out again. That's why cue makers have spent so much time developing strong joints for their cues. The joint of a cue is where a great deal of energy can be lost if it is poorly constructed. Let the cue do the work. Light grip, soft hands, but with control. There is no need to muscle any shot. Don't go the other way either,no floppy fish out of water wrist action.
I invite responses to this theory.
Tom
Imagine the cue stick as a musical instrument. A percussion instrument to be exact. If you were to have a cymbal loosely hanging and strike it, the sound it makes will have a nice ring to it and reverberate for a considerable time. The moment the cymbal is grasped all vibration from the instrument is lost. I believe a pool cue works the same way. The shock wave generated by the hit should run through the entire cue twice. Once from tip to butt and then back out again. That's why cue makers have spent so much time developing strong joints for their cues. The joint of a cue is where a great deal of energy can be lost if it is poorly constructed. Let the cue do the work. Light grip, soft hands, but with control. There is no need to muscle any shot. Don't go the other way either,no floppy fish out of water wrist action.
I invite responses to this theory.
Tom
ChrisBanks
Banned
I've never heard of anyone advising a tight grip. All terms are relative, but have you ever seen a single good player using a tight grip in your life?
No, but similar to golf, some are definitely tighter than commonly taught. Fairly certain though that no one at a high level plays with a traditional "death grip".
Scott
Scott
Tom:
I am a musician (jazz 6-string [contra] bass guitar), and I've been playing for the greater part of 20 years (close to 30). I also consulted for the Sam Ash music store line for a bit, when I first came out of military service (back in the early 1990s). Believe me, I know a LOT about music theory, instrument theory, and how sound and vibrations travel through different mediums.
I can tell you that while "it makes sense" to you that a cue's resonance would travel up and down the cue, in real practice, it doesn't. It stops dead right at the joint, *unless* the joint is made from the same material -- wood -- as the cue itself is made from. In other words, unless you have a wood-to-wood joint, or even a wood pin (e.g. like 3-cushion and some pool cues have), that sound, vibration, and resonance is going to BOUNCE OFF OF the joint, back down towards the tip of the cue.
This is especially true if the joint is a stainless steel joint. Whenever you have a mating of two different materials -- wood to stainless steel -- the sound/vibration/resonance is going to hit that much denser material (stainless steel) like a brick wall.
This brings up an interesting point, too. When people use the terms "hard hit" and "soft hit," what do they mean? For example, a stainless steel-jointed cue is often described as having a "hard hit." But yet, that sound/vibrations/resonance never makes it to your grip hand because that big block of dense steel right in the middle of the cue is bouncing that sound/vibration/resonance right back to the tip. But a wood-to-wood jointed cue -- which transmits a lot more of those sensations to your grip hand -- is said to have a "soft hit." This doesn't make sense, when you think about it. A car with a really good suspension and shocks system that "glides" over the road (where you don't even feel the road -- like an old well-maintained Cadillac) is said to have a "soft ride." And an economy car where you feel every bump, every piece of gravel, and every dip or hump in the road is said to have a "hard ride." In cues, that stainless steel-jointed cue (the old Cadillac) where that big block of steel insulates you from the hit should be said to have a "soft hit," and vice-versa for the wood-to-wood jointed cue -- where you feel the hit in your grip hand -- having a "hard hit."
As for the debate between a firm or loose grip, I'm a firm believer in allowing your wrist/hand to do what it needs to do to ALLOW THE CUE TO FLY STRAIGHT. In other words, while delivering the cue, LET THE CUE FLY STRAIGHT and don't try to "muscle" or "control" it. This is irrespective of whether you use a piston or pendulum stroke, btw. Let the tool do the work.
I myself, have a firm cradle, but rather loose wrist. The cue just rests in the cradle, but I don't let the cradle itself deform via movements of my fingers -- those are LOCKED. There is no [what I like to refer to as] "grabby grabby" motion in my fingers -- no opening or closing of the hand or fingers. The fingers form a "cage" around the cue, and the cue rests in a cradle. I let the cue pivot on my index finger as my hand (and the cue) moves forward. The only contact point between my hand and the cue is underneath, where the cue's weight naturally causes it to rest upon my index finger. If you were to look along the surfaces of the cue while it's in my grip hand, you'd see daylight around 75% of the circumference of it -- the other 25% is on the bottom, resting upon my index finger via gravity. I've found this grip to impart the least amount of yaw or forces other than dead-straight forward to the cue. And even with this "cue is merely resting upon one finger" contact point, I can really let that cue rip, too! I use the same grip for breaking as I do the most careful "touch" shots in 14.1 or one pocket.
-Sean
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