Loose SS collar ..

[Newton]

Having a custom cue in for repair where the SS collar is loose (spinning) but it's not willing to come off - i.e I can't thread it / un-screw the SS...
The customer has bough the cue down in the Philippines and I'm not sure how they do these things when they install...

One theory I have is that it might be that the SS has been twisted - "to tight" and chewed the threads and packed up - and for that reason would not come off.. The SS can be rotated the whole 360´without any friction - but would not allow me to pull it off..

Needless to say - I'm afraid of damaging the forarm section more - any one been through this ?

The cue need a new collar and possibly changing the un-aligned pin which is not centered...

K

 

[KJ Cues]

Greetings Kent,

Here's how I might go about this.
This may seem a bit radical at first but I think you'll find the
end result warrants it.
If you can move the joint collar enough to get a thin saw-blade btwn it
and the deco ring just below it, cut it all off.
You cut the tenon and the pin and the jnt. collar goes with it.
Chances are that your tenon is trash anyway from the collar spinning.
The pin is off center so it would have to be plugged and reset also.
By cutting it all off, you merely re-tenon the forearm and start over with new wood.
Drill a 3/16" (or 3-4mm) hole all the way thru the dowel before you install it.
This will allow you tighter tolerance of the dowel & hole without risk of hydraulic action.

This course of action is based on what you've told me without my seeing the cue.
I appreciate your talent(s) and hope that you find something here that you can use.
I'm with Ryan and his position on PI cues, they're a trap.
You can't repair the task at hand without first repairing 3 other things.
If I can help you in any way, I will. Just drop me a line.

KJ

 

[manwon]

Having a custom cue in for repair where the SS collar is loose (spinning) but it's not willing to come off - i.e I can't thread it / un-screw the SS...
The customer has bough the cue down in the Philippines and I'm not sure how they do these things when they install...

One theory I have is that it might be that the SS has been twisted - "to tight" and chewed the threads and packed up - and for that reason would not come off.. The SS can be rotated the whole 360´without any friction - but would not allow me to pull it off..

Needless to say - I'm afraid of damaging the forarm section more - any one been through this ?

The cue need a new collar and possibly changing the un-aligned pin which is not centered...

K

I have had similar problems with cue in for repair. No offense to your customer but I no longer work on the run of the mill cues from the Philippines because of all the problems I have seen with them in the past.

It may not seem like it but it could be nothing more than a little excess adhesive that is not allowing it to come completely off. In the past when I had a similar problem I heated the joint collar a little bit with a torch, which melted the glue and let the stainless steel collar unscrew.

This may sound extreme, but so long as you don't over heat it you will not hurt anything. Most likely when you get the collar off you will find that the tenon needs to be replaced anyway along with the pin but I could be wrong these repairs as we all know are always a case by case basis and with this type of cue you never know what you going to find.

Like I said above, I would try heating it.

Hope this helps.

 

[conetip]

The ones I have seen were not threaded at all. Just glued with some grooves on the tenon and a couple in the collar.
KJ has the same way about fixing it.
These things are more to repair than their worth.
I now ask the reason for repairing and a deposit up front.
There is no point in doing the work and the customer not paying you for your time.
Some of these cues are so cheap, I just don't know how they do it.
Some of the product on the market today sort of looks ok at a distance, but up close it's true lack of quality starts to show.To say that some of this stuff is junk is an insult to junk.

 

[ratcues]

I use a torch. CAREFULLY, heat the collar by moving the flame back and forth over the collar, making sure not to stop on the collar because it will discolor it or add too much heat, thus melting the finish or collars. It shouldn't take too long and the glue will melt and the collar can be removed.

 

[Newton]

Greetings Kent,

Here's how I might go about this.
This may seem a bit radical at first but I think you'll find the
end result warrants it.
If you can move the joint collar enough to get a thin saw-blade btwn it
and the deco ring just below it, cut it all off.
You cut the tenon and the pin and the jnt. collar goes with it.
Chances are that your tenon is trash anyway from the collar spinning.
The pin is off center so it would have to be plugged and reset also.
By cutting it all off, you merely re-tenon the forearm and start over with new wood.
Drill a 3/16" (or 3-4mm) hole all the way thru the dowel before you install it.
This will allow you tighter tolerance of the dowel & hole without risk of hydraulic action.

This course of action is based on what you've told me without my seeing the cue.
I appreciate your talent(s) and hope that you find something here that you can use.
I'm with Ryan and his position on PI cues, they're a trap.
You can't repair the task at hand without first repairing 3 other things.
If I can help you in any way, I will. Just drop me a line.

KJ

Hi there buddy,
Thank you so much for your help. I like your approach since I have a
sneaking feeling that the tenon is most likely nothing to use at all.
When thinking about it - I could actually just make a custom collar
which fits just under the ring and then just use my parting tool and chop it.
The parting tool would take - I guess 2mm extra off it - which I can take
back by extending either a new SS collar or possibly a custom composite joint.
I don't have this cue in my shop - since I would not accept it before I had a
chat with my friends up here on AZ - how to attack it.
Now when I have a clear idea on how to do it I would accept it and do the work.
The owner is very fund of this cue, but it is as you mentioned a crap pice of equipment.
The maple has a - well I'm not sure about the english word - but "left over"
after a branch on the forarm. This has been milled away and simply patched
with a pice of fresh maple...
I'll shoot some pics for you all when I have received the cue.

Thanks
K

 

[Newton]

I have had similar problems with cue in for repair. No offense to your customer but I no longer work on the run of the mill cues from the because of all the problems I have seen with them in the past.

It may not seem like it but it could be nothing more than a little excess adhesive that is not allowing it to come completely off. In the past when I had a similar problem I heated the joint collar a little bit with a torch, which melted the glue and let the stainless steel collar unscrew.

This may sound extreme, but so long as you don't over heat it you will not hurt anything. Most likely when you get the collar off you will find that the tenon needs to be replaced anyway along with the pin but I could be wrong these repairs as we all know are always a case by case basis and with this type of cue you never know what you going to find.

Like I said above, I would try heating it.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Creig.
I was wondering about heating the SS collar but I was stumbled by the fact that
the SS collar spins almost freely. I started thinking about a press fit with a locking
ring - where the wood as a larger OD ring which press fit's in to the opposite on the SS.
If I would go this route, I would use a biiiig solder iron and heat only the SS collar
and see how this goes. It would be a learning experience to see how this looks
"under the hood" so if I get curious enough I'll try to heat it:smile:

In case I would add some pictures on this thread when the work has started
so you all can see how the Philippino cuemaker has done this.

Thanks
K

 

[Newton]

The ones I have seen were not threaded at all. Just glued with some grooves on the tenon and a couple in the collar.
KJ has the same way about fixing it.
These things are more to repair than their worth.
I now ask the reason for repairing and a deposit up front.
There is no point in doing the work and the customer not paying you for your time.
Some of these cues are so cheap, I just don't know how they do it.
Some of the product on the market today sort of looks ok at a distance, but up close it's true lack of quality starts to show.To say that some of this stuff is junk is an insult to junk.

This is a cheap cue for sure, but the customer is not to fuzzy about the looks
but he likes the hit in the cue. The Philippino cuemaker has managed to get a OB shaft on the
cue so he has for sure done something right Did not know you shipped these
down there Royce - if you read this...

The customer has two cues and both has a pin which is off centered. The one discussed
here is the worst w.r.t the pin where the collar needs to be rotated to a special
point on the cue where the shaft goes fairly straight. The customer - actually a
friend as well - has marked this with a mark on the forarm and the SS collar so he can quickly "dial" this in :thumbup:

The pin it self is a strange one - looking like a radial but is not. I guess it could be
self made where the OD is larger then normal but the threads looks "radial-ish".
I managed to get something to fixated on the cue by boring with a - hmm was it
8mm drill and then tap. The pice of wood I made screwed on and locked but
it was fairly loose I have to say.
This had me thinking on which pin to install... :scratchhead:
What would you charge for a job like this ? PM me in case - I understand we should not discuss prices up here..

Thanks
K

 

[Newton]

I use a torch. CAREFULLY, heat the collar by moving the flame back and forth over the collar, making sure not to stop on the collar because it will discolor it or add too much heat, thus melting the finish or collars. It shouldn't take too long and the glue will melt and the collar can be removed.

Ryan,

What do you think of using a powerfull solder iron ? I have previously used a
industrial heat gun - which worked OK. However it was scary since you very
quickly touch areas which you don't want to heat.... Like clear coat and wood :smile:

Thanks for your feedback. Any luck with that "thing" I sent you ?

K

 

[ratcues]

I suppose a solder iron could work. My concern is discoloration but maybe it won't get that hot. If you do not plan on reusing the collar, go ahead and try.




<~~I always have luck with "things."

 

[Cue Crazy]

I use a butane torch for these type of things, and just try to be careful By controlling the flame. You also want to make sure that you are pointing It away from the forearm or the flame can ride up on to the finish. As Ryan also mentioned, You have to keep the heat moving, stay in one place too long and your making blue steel with other purdy colors mixed in. I usually do this with the cue mounted in the lathe and slowly turn the spindle at the same time.



Here's what I use. I have no Idea where It came from, My father gave It to me before he passed away, but It's worked better for me then any butane torch that I ever have owned. It does not leak down from non use, and will last for over a year as long as I don't leave the fuel on. I just fill it up use It as I need It and forget the rest. It's also nice because I can accurately control the flame.

Greg



http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51750&d=1192078518

 

[KJ Cues]

You may pickup some 'bluing'/discoloration on the collar when using heat
but it is only on the surface and will easily polish out.

 

[cueman]

Most likely this joint was not threaded on but has grooves cut into the tenon and what is holding the stainless on is some epoxy or even somethign that looks like bondo rotating around in one of those grooves, but still stuck to the joint. If you do not want to have to cut a new stainless joint I would not heat it, instead I would wrap leather around the joint and clamp it down in a vise. Then I would rotate the cue while pulling on it hard. That should strip it on off. Then sleeve something over his stripped tenon, turn it down and reglue the joint.

 

[Newton]

Most likely this joint was not threaded on but has grooves cut into the tenon and what is holding the stainless on is some epoxy or even somethign that looks like bondo rotating around in one of those grooves, but still stuck to the joint. If you do not want to have to cut a new stainless joint I would not heat it, instead I would wrap leather around the joint and clamp it down in a vise. Then I would rotate the cue while pulling on it hard. That should strip it on off. Then sleeve something over his stripped tenon, turn it down and reglue the joint.

Thanks Chris for your tip.

When it comes to the SS colar it self, I think this is just to throw away since I have a sneaking feeling this is not true either.
My idea was to install a Elforyn collar on a new tennon.
However, I liked your idea of potentially turning it down a bit and reinforce the old with fresh maple. But then I think I need to core the tennon up again to make new threads for the pin.
It might be that I could just heat it and use the lathe to re-aline it again, but then I'm crossing fingers that the pin is not bent.

Thank you all for your feedbacks, they are all highly appreciated.

Kent

 

[Newton]

Picture update

Just thought I could add these since the cue has been received.
The butt is straight when rolled, however if you turn the SS collar in the wrong direction it would make the cue wobble a little.
In other words the SS collar is not true to the cue....
Pics as follows
1- Ring bellow the grip. The OD of the SS is larger than the ring and could be felt with the fingers.
2 - If you don't have enough "Birds Eye" you make them your self The cuemaker has removed a portion and "patched" the BEM.. Sweeeeeeeet
3- Loose SS collar - spinning with it's untrue joint pin.

Was considering removing the SS collar for a look and then remove the 5/16x14 joint. Then possibly chop it as KJ mentioned - core - new tenon - composite collar.

Is this something you would "touch" or pass on ?

Thanks
K

 

[RBC]

Kent,

another problem you have to watch out for is the joint work in the shaft. If the pin isn't in the center, then they sanded the joint together to get them to match. As soon as you get the joint side fixed, the shaft will now be way off center.

They are rubber band cues.

No matter what you do, or how careful you are, they keep bouncing back to you!

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Palmetto cue]

I use a butane torch for these type of things, and just try to be careful By controlling the flame. You also want to make sure that you are pointing It away from the forearm or the flame can ride up on to the finish. As Ryan also mentioned, You have to keep the heat moving, stay in one place too long and your making blue steel with other purdy colors mixed in. I usually do this with the cue mounted in the lathe and slowly turn the spindle at the same time.



Here's what I use. I have no Idea where It came from, My father gave It to me before he passed away, but It's worked better for me then any butane torch that I ever have owned. It does not leak down from non use, and will last for over a year as long as I don't leave the fuel on. I just fill it up use It as I need It and forget the rest. It's also nice because I can accurately control the flame.

Greg



http://forums.azbilliards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51750&d=1192078518

I use the same thing. I picked it up at Harbour Freight a few years ago. Works great. Easy to control the flame and heat.

 

[Newton]

Thought I could give a short update :

The spinning SS collar was "threaded" using glue... i.e no threads was done in the wood - it had a hugh layer of glue... !
The pin was glued with a hugh amount of CA....

To get it all off I used a heat gun to get the SS off - the same with the pin - which released gasses from the CA - not good.

Chopped the tenon off above the ringwork - rebored to 10mm and threaded the new hole and glued up with epoxy and a new maple - currently curing.
Would use linen phenolic and reinstall a new pin - hopefully it would work

K