Losing is the key to success!

Billy_Bob

Billy_Bob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everyone on these forums talks about what to do to improve, but I have noticed something lately which is a sure fire way to KEEP from improving...

As I have become a better player over the past several years, I have been watching other players around me. As I improve and start winning games, people stop wanting to play pool with me (for fun, practice, or warm-up before a match). They are dropping like flies!

Now what gets me is I have recently moved up to a better class of players. I thought these folks would play and play and play. But I am finding the same thing... I get to where I can win a few games, and then some don't want to play me anymore.

-A few people I know are improving, learning new things, becoming better players.
-Most people are not improving.
-Some people have asked me recently for tips on how to improve their playing.

Well I’ve got this thing figured out...

Many of those people who are not improving will say they want to be pro players some day - win a big tournament. But they can't stand losing!

They hate losing so much, they will not play anyone better than they are. If they have anything to do with a tournament, they will ban better players so they will have a better chance of winning.

If given the choice of playing in a tournament with better players and probably going two and out or playing in a tournament with beginners and a sure fire win, they will play in the beginner tournament. If given a choice between playing someone who will beat them or playing someone they can beat, they will play the person they can beat. They will not play the player who can beat them.

And so far as practice and learning new things go, they don't listen to what anyone tells them and they will not practice. They are not willing to work on their "future" game.

And then I have noticed an "instant gratification" thing. People want a few quick tips so they can go win a game against their buddy that night. But seem to be unwilling to practice now to improve their playing for the future.

As I was thinking about these things, I recalled reading The Black Widows Guide to Killer Pool by Jeanette Lee. In this book, she discussed how early on, she played the very best players and lost, lost, lost! And kept doing so every single day for many years.

I don't know if you can "learn to lose" or not. It seems like it's maybe a personality thing.
Either you can lose again and again and keep playing, seek out players better than yourself and ask to play them knowing you will probably lose. Or you can't.

I've tried to explain this to a few people, that if they play in the tougher tournaments, play players who beat them, etc., it will make the easier tournaments seem like a piece of cake.

But it goes in one ear and out the other or they just can't deal with losing.

Anyway it seems to me, the people who have the ability to lose and keep playing that person who constantly beats them (or can somehow learn this) are the people who will improve their playing. Those who can't will not improve.

BTW - I played a bunch of big shots the other night and lost many, many games. My hands have splinters from racking so much! Can't wait to play them again.

Comments?
 
Very good post. I think you're absolutely correct. I think a player gets to a certain level that is above the pack so to speak, and garners a lot of praise from other players. All this goes to your head and now you don't want to ruin that lofty feeling by losing, especially to the hungry up-and-coming players.

If you want to keep getting better, I too think that you have to keep playing everyone good and bad and learn from your mistakes without worrying about losing. If you look at a loss as a learning experience instead of just a loss, I think that may help.
 
Billy_Bob said:
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yeah....."pool players" are lazy and prefer doing things the easy way. so what's new? a hustler might be good enough to give a fish the 4, but he'll still try to GET a spot instead!
 
Billy Bob, very good point.

I was one of the few who wanted to play the better players in town to improve my game, but the problem was very few of the better players would just play play, or play for table time. But a couple would, and they taught me a few things like planning ahead several shots, and english and not to hit the CB so hard.

I also anytime a open tournament was around, would drop my 30-50$ and enter these tournaments even though i had no chance of winning the tournament and a slim chance of winning a match, but still gave 100% and watched and learn as these guys would run racks and play tight safes.

And i would sit through the whole tournament day and watch how these guys played, and learned, and everytime i did, i came away with more knowledge.

Now its not so much finding people to play against, its that very few people like to play on 9ft tables in my area, unless they are A or higher rated. Which inturn they only will play for money, with the sets being min 50$ or so, which is outa my range.

But I see the same thing in my area, most people only wanna play when they have the upper hand in the match, or tournament. They chicken out if they feel like they dont have a chance at winning.

dave
 
Been there, done that.

Great post Billy Bob. You sound like me and what I went through. Keep it up though. Getting thumped on by good players certainly will help you get to the next level. Good luck.
 
Billy_Bob said:
Anyway it seems to me, the people who have the ability to lose and keep playing that person who constantly beats them (or can somehow learn this) are the people who will improve their playing....

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tap-tap-tap
and, true in almost any endeavor - you get better by playing the best you can find, as often as you can, working as hard as you can to beat them, learning from every game.
great post.
 
It's easy to think that others should think like you, Billy Bob, but they rarely do. Some will, some won't, so what? (swswsw)

Your fine and thoughtful post reminded me of why I don't have "winning" as my main pool goal. Thanks for that.

Jeff Livingston
 
Billy_Bob said:
As I was thinking about these things, I recalled reading The Black Widows Guide to Killer Pool by Jeanette Lee. In this book, she discussed how early on, she played the very best players and lost, lost, lost! And kept doing so every single day for many years.

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Comments?

This is the best post I have read on this MB, that my first comment.

My league buddy, who is a younger guy who shoots a great stick, went up to New York, this past weekend, and was speaking with Cory Duel.

One of the things he too told him he lost a lot of money early on, trying to learn the game.

It's funny how I shot all this weekend in a money tournament with my pool league, and was really stunned to have forgotten how good these shooters are in the TAP league as opposed to the APA leagues in my area. Not pro level or anything, but it was a shock to my confidence to get beat up like I did on the practice tables by the average shooters.

The reality, some people rather feel like a big fish in a small pond, as opposed to a big fish in a large pond. Ignorance is bliss.
 
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I have found out the same about getting people to play. The real good players only want to play for stakes that are higher than I can afford to lose, and the poorer players will try to avoid me.

Attending major tournaments would probably accomplish the same thing as playing a better player because I would be doing the same thing; sitting in the seat watching them play.
 
i agree 100% with this post. Im looking to do alot of traveling and tourney and road gambling this year strictly to learn. I think a decent sized state tourney would just be perfect to learn and keep your cash intact too. A guy i play went to the open last year, he finished around the 100 mark which isnt bad, we shoot about even so Im thinking in 1 or maybe 2 more years ill have to give it a try.......the stuff you could learn would be worth so much more than the $500 entry fee, as long as you can keep your ego out of it and not be so wrapped up in maybe getting blown off a table by a pro, that youre aware and watching and learning.
 
Its good playing better players though sometimes its difficult playing lesser players too, more awkward even though you win.
I wouldn't be masochistic about it though. Keeps you level headed but isn't fun. Good to win a few games, as you always can against the hot shot or the old pro.
I mean theres so many good players, you do want to play someone you have a chance of beating, right, otherwise its so monotonous.
I like getting drunk with social players too. Thats a hoot.
Maybe theres a balance there but you end up playing everyone and anyone, its a good thing.
 
First off ....

The better players usually do not want to play for free unless its Sunday afternoon and they are just waiting around for a guy to get there for a money match. Players become known as tournament or money players.

It is not losing that benefits you, it is learning from your experiences whether it is winning or losing. You think about the losing more because you have a desire to be successful and win, and you try to figure out why you lost more.I try to come away with something new from each match I play, not just the ones I lost. What I did right, what I didn't, and what I need to work on.Most people don't have the determination to follow through with their playing to improve very much, and some just don't have the intelligence to approach it the right way. It depends on how important it is to you, and what you are willing to sacrifice in order to get where you want to be.

Pool, for the most part, is a layered accumulation of knowledge and skill, but no matter how good you get, you have to maintain an open mind for learning, and a drive to get even better.
 
It would be nice if the situation would come full circle every now and then though. I'm very aware of what you are talking about. I've been going after the better players for years and it has helped my game a lot. Full circle would be when a lesser player ask me to play so they could get better. That just doesn't seem to happen. I seem to be the only one that likes to pay a little for lessons. Sure, they will play for free. Every time I play one of them I let them know what I had to do (lose money) to get to where I am. (though that is not nearly far enough yet) Just recently I have said no twice to play for free. That was a big thing for me and very much out of character. It's very hard for me to say no. (hear that girls! lol). Fortunately there are several very good players locally here that will play cheap.
 
Snapshot9 said:
The better players usually do not want to play for free unless its Sunday afternoon and they are just waiting around for a guy to get there for a money match. Players become known as tournament or money players.

It is not losing that benefits you, it is learning from your experiences whether it is winning or losing. You think about the losing more because you have a desire to be successful and win, and you try to figure out why you lost more.I try to come away with something new from each match I play, not just the ones I lost. What I did right, what I didn't, and what I need to work on.Most people don't have the determination to follow through with their playing to improve very much, and some just don't have the intelligence to approach it the right way. It depends on how important it is to you, and what you are willing to sacrifice in order to get where you want to be.

Pool, for the most part, is a layered accumulation of knowledge and skill, but no matter how good you get, you have to maintain an open mind for learning, and a drive to get even better.
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Great response to a great post. +1:D
 
Great post Billy_Bob. Something to think about. However, although i agree that you should always challenge yourself and try to consistently compete with people better than you, you can do this too much to a fault. Although I agree losing is a good thing because it'll maintain your desire to improve, you also have to learn how to win.

Take Michelle Wie for example (16 year old professional female golfer). She has all the talent in the world, and her future golf career is limitless. However, she has been criticized the past 2 years or so because she has been competing in many professional events (even men's events) at such a young age. Her critics say that she is actually hampering her progress as a professional golfer, because she has not concentrated on winning tournaments with amateurs or golf peers her own age. I agree.

Tiger Woods was one of her many critics. He mentioned that there is an "art to winning" that can only be learned through the experience of winning. How to jump to an early lead in a tournament, how to distance yourself from the pack, and most importantly how to maintain your lead are key things one has to learn through experience to become a consistent champion.

Wie is the most talented female golfer out there today (except for maybe Sorenstam), yet she hasn't won any tournaments to date. She had numerous chances of doing so, but she lacked the experience to either keep her lead or give that extra push to overcome her deficit. Although I don't doubt she will be a champion in the future, I feel she would have more immediate success if she won more amateur tournaments instead of trying to compete with the professsionals so soon.

To summarize, to be a champion, not only do you have to lose, but you have to learn how to win as well.
 
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Snapshot9 said:
The better players usually do not want to play for free unless its Sunday afternoon and they are just waiting around for a guy to get there for a money match. Players become known as tournament or money players.

It is not losing that benefits you, it is learning from your experiences whether it is winning or losing. You think about the losing more because you have a desire to be successful and win, and you try to figure out why you lost more.I try to come away with something new from each match I play, not just the ones I lost. What I did right, what I didn't, and what I need to work on.Most people don't have the determination to follow through with their playing to improve very much, and some just don't have the intelligence to approach it the right way. It depends on how important it is to you, and what you are willing to sacrifice in order to get where you want to be.

Pool, for the most part, is a layered accumulation of knowledge and skill, but no matter how good you get, you have to maintain an open mind for learning, and a drive to get even better.
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excellent point, the way you go about it has so much to do with your success. I know a big part of my recent improvement was keeping a pool journal.....just a little notebook and pen i could keep in the pocket on my cue case. Practicing and notice something, i note it. Played awesome and realise things that were working for me.....after the match i note it. Playing sucky, i note what i was doing. Ill even diagram runouts that i blew and go back and work thru it when i practice to see the right way to handle it. Pool is an education, you almost have to approach it the same way
 
jsp said:
Great post Billy_Bob. Something to think about. However, although i agree that you should always challenge yourself and try to consistently compete with people better than you, you can do this too much to a fault. Although I agree losing is a good thing because it'll maintain your desire to improve, you also have to learn how to win.
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Oh I know how to do that too. I took 1st in a tournament a couple of weeks ago and 2nd in another tournament after that. And a few 3rds here and there.

And many times I can go and play the local players in my area and win almost every game. Actually many of them do not want to play me any more because I most always win.

I don't want to play them any more because they are too easy to beat. They give me too many chances to win. Then I go play a big shot and am not as careful as I should be, miss a shot, then they run out.

I agree that it is good to balance your play with both lesser/same skilled players and better players. Then winning games will keep your confidence up from the thrashing you get when playing the better players.

And I usually win a few when playing the better players. I don't know if they are "letting" me win or if I am actually winning. I try to discourage them from "letting" me win. I tell them the best thing for me is to lose if I miss one shot, then I will learn to be more careful. So I tell them to clobber me if possible - don't be nice, etc.
 
That's What I Tell Em!

When I am playing somebody with less skill than I have, I tell them the truth. " I have lost a hell of a lot more games than you ". I have been doing this a long time.
Purdman:cool:
 
Losing ...

all the time is not good for you, it takes its toll on you mentally. If you got
clobbered all the time, pretty soon you just won't want to play, it's Human Nature. Ever see a good player get beat by a better player, and then the one that lost can not win after that for 4-5 months or so?

Many many players that are local heroes that go to Nationals in Vegas experience losing on a bigger stage, and come home with the knowledge that their game is not as good as they thought. That's jsut one reason why handicapping all the time is not good, but handicapping does encourage participation where they might not otherwise.
Learning Pool is an education. What you do with it is up to you.
 
Someone once told me there are 3 steps...........

First you learn how to lose. Eventually you learn how not to lose. And finally, you learn how to win.

Makes perfect sense to me, not sure how most people would interpret it.

VAP
 
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