Low deflection / Low squirt shaft comparison

[Gerry]

Hey man, How have you been?

I'm not sure how to get a hold of the results, but Bob Meucci did a test years back putting his cues up against others. I know it was extensive and they used mechanical means. Might be cool to find the results for your thread.

have fun,

Gerry

 

[dr_dave]

Myself and several others on this forum have been looking for reliable information on ld shaft characteristics. My hope is this thread might be a source for us to keep updated.

FYI, previously-published data can be found here:

shaft squirt (CB deflection) comparison data resource page

I would like to use a 1-10 scale in describing only the deflection or squirt characteristics of particular shafts.

As suggested by others, I recommend using the pivot length as the main scale (and not try to make up a new qualitative scale).

It is fairly easy for anybody to measure shaft natural pivot length using the procedure and video demonstration here:

cue natural pivot length resource page

I hope people post lots of good data on many shafts not already listed on the data resource page. If so, I'll add the data (and a link) to the page for future reference.

Regards,
Dave

 

[DoubleA]

Myself and several others on this forum have been looking for reliable information on ld shaft characteristics. My hope is this thread might be a source for us to keep updated. I would like to use a 1-10 scale in describing only the deflection or squirt characteristics of particular shafts.

10 being high deflection, 1 being minimal deflection.

Hopefully we can list as many shafts as possible and use this thread as a reference.

The best relatively objective testing I am aware of would be pivot based stop shot with side spin. If someone knows a better method without robot testing please let me know.

*****This should not turn into a shaft bashing thread. High or low squirt / deflection does not mean good or bad shafts. This is only an attempt at helping those interested find the shafts most suited to the individual searching.

I will begin with shafts I am recently familiar with and we can adjust and update as needed.

1 = minimal squirt / deflection. 10 = high squirt / deflection

These #'s are subjective but with enough input we can give a fairly accurate comparison.

Scale # - Brand - Model - pivot point"

2.5 - OB - Pro + - ?
3.0 - Predator - Z2 - 14
3.4 - Jacoby - Hybrid Edge - 12.75
3.5 - Predator - 314-2 - 12.5
3.5 - Mezz - WD700 - 12.5
3.7 - Players - HXT (reg. not skinny) - 11.5
6.0 - Tiger - Ultra X LD - 8
8.0 - Prather - 13mm reg. shaft - 7

I am well aware of the fact that I may have just wasted a half hour but I feel this could be very helpful if done correctly.

Mark, define exactly what squirt or deflection is, and how is it beneficial to the shooter?

 

[dr_dave]

Mark, define exactly what squirt or deflection is, and how is it beneficial to the shooter?

The amount of squirt (CB deflection) a shaft creates can have both advantages and disadvantages to different people, depending on their preferred bridge length and how they aim when using sidespin (both intentionally and unintentionally).

Regards,
Dave

 

[9Ballr]

Myself and several others on this forum have been looking for reliable information on ld shaft characteristics. My hope is this thread might be a source for us to keep updated. I would like to use a 1-10 scale in describing only the deflection or squirt characteristics of particular shafts.

10 being high deflection, 1 being minimal deflection.

Hopefully we can list as many shafts as possible and use this thread as a reference.

The best relatively objective testing I am aware of would be pivot based stop shot with side spin. If someone knows a better method without robot testing please let me know.

*****This should not turn into a shaft bashing thread. High or low squirt / deflection does not mean good or bad shafts. This is only an attempt at helping those interested find the shafts most suited to the individual searching.

I will begin with shafts I am recently familiar with and we can adjust and update as needed.

1 = minimal squirt / deflection. 10 = high squirt / deflection

These #'s are subjective but with enough input we can give a fairly accurate comparison.

Scale # - Brand - Model - pivot point"

2.5 - OB - Pro + - ?
3.0 - Predator - Z2 - 14
3.4 - Jacoby - Hybrid Edge - 12.75
3.5 - Predator - 314-2 - 12.5
3.5 - Mezz - WD700 - 12.5
3.7 - Players - HXT (reg. not skinny) - 11.5
6.0 - Tiger - Ultra X LD - 8
8.0 - Prather - 13mm reg. shaft - 7

I am well aware of the fact that I may have just wasted a half hour but I feel this could be very helpful if done correctly.

Very nice. Thank you for all your work.
But I don't see a good traditional shaft in there.
Would be nice to have the comparison.
Considering the fact that you always have to compensate anyway even if you have an LD shaft I don't see the point in them......

 

[Eagleshot]

Mark, define exactly what squirt or deflection is, and how is it beneficial to the shooter


- All shafts have squirt - the amount of deviation from the line of aim when sidespin is applied.

- There is also swerve - after the squirt effect has dissipated the sidespin takes over causing a masse type effect moving the cue ball back towards the aim line.

The end mass of the shaft has been proven to have the most (if not all) of the impact on ld characteristics.

 

[ivicafranic]

Wendy prefers high squirt the most

 

[Eagleshot]

Very nice. Thank you for all your work.
But I don't see a good traditional shaft in there.
Would be nice to have the comparison.
Considering the fact that you always have to compensate anyway even if you have an LD shaft I don't see the point in them......

We can add any shafts.

I believe the Prather 13mm shaft was very good, dense wood. I just prefer LD.

You are correct about always having to compensate regardless of the shaft.

The point, to me at least, is finding a bridge length I am comfortable using and forgiveness on off center shots.

 

[Cornerman]

Very nice. Thank you for all your work.
But I don't see a good traditional shaft in there.
Would be nice to have the comparison.
.

Isn't the Prather regular 13mm shaft traditional enough? What am I missing?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Same here, My predator will not Masse' the ball no where near my regular shaft nor will it jump a ball .

I agree about jumping - my custom LD shaft jumps like a white guy. But it masses fine (at least to my low standards).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Squirt and Pivot Lengths

I like this idea.

Since we're on the topic, here are a couple of informational graphics I've posted in the past about squirt and pivot lengths. I hope they're mostly self-explanatory.

This one shows that the amount of pure squirt* for any shot is equal to tip offset x pivot lengths of CB travel.

*squirt without any swerve, like for a shot hit on the equator with a level cue

pj
chgo

View attachment 39045

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Squirt, Swerve and Pivot Lengths

This one shows the interaction of squirt and swerve ("squirve").

pj
chgo

View attachment 39312

 

[336Robin]

Frigging Awesome!

PJ,
Your diagrams are friggin awesome!

 

[RBC]

I can add a few things.

First for Masse. I've often had players tell me that they can't Masse with their LD shaft, LD or otherwise. In almost every single case, the issue isn't whether it will Masse, it's an issue of aiming. With a traditional shaft, the rather large cue ball squirt is used to get the cue ball to clear the interfering ball, after which the spin takes over and curves the cue ball back. With an LD shaft, that large squirt isn't there, and many people just drive the cue ball into the interfering ball and it never gets a chance to spin back. All that's necessary is to simple aim to clear the interfering ball. Remember, it doesn't squirt nearly as much as a traditional shaft. As for the spin, most find that LD shafts provide spin a little easier than traditional shafts so Masse's are actually easier. That is after you learn the right way to aim them.

Dr Dave. Thanks for posting that information from the old Platinum Billiards website. Shane Sinnott was the owner of that site and was instrumental in putting that information together. He's also our Sales and Marketing Director at OB. I'm sure he would agree that the LD world has changed quite a bit over the last few years. I know that our newest shafts would make many shafts, previously considered LD, seem like regular squirt shafts. I think you might want to mention the age of that information and that there have been significant advancements in recent years.

And thanks to Fred, Cornerman, for the mention on the new OB Pro+. And actually, your suspicions are right about the OB2+, it is lower.


Oh, and PJ, as always your posts are great and the graphics are very cool.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Thanks for the compliments, guys. I hope the graphics aren't a distraction from the real purpose of this thread, which is to collect a broad range of squirt data. Hopefully some background squirt/pivotpoint info will be useful to that effort.

pj
chgo

 

[Eagleshot]

Would love pivot point data on the following:

Mezz hybrid pro II
Wx900
Hybrid alpha

OB 1+
2+
Classic +
Pro +

Predator 314-3
Z-3

Bd cues SS360

Tiger ultra X
X Pro

Katana

CDX super shaft

Pechauer

Boss Sureshot

 

[dr_dave]

This one shows the interaction of squirt and swerve ("squirve").

pj
chgo

View attachment 39312

Excellent illustration PJ! FYI, I've added it (with a link) to the squerve/squirve resource page.

For those interested, all important squirt, swerve, and squerve/squirve effects are documented with supporting resources and demonstrations on the squirt, swerve, and throw effects resource page.

I already had your other excellent image on the cue natural pivot length resource page.

Good work,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dr Dave. Thanks for posting that information from the old Platinum Billiards website. Shane Sinnott was the owner of that site and was instrumental in putting that information together. He's also our Sales and Marketing Director at OB. I'm sure he would agree that the LD world has changed quite a bit over the last few years. I know that our newest shafts would make many shafts, previously considered LD, seem like regular squirt shafts. I think you might want to mention the age of that information and that there have been significant advancements in recent years.

FYI, I've added "circa about 2008" to my quote of the Platinum Billiards data. This data is fairly old. Thank you for pointing this out.

I am happy to post newer data when it becomes available (e.g., from posts in this thread).

I personally prefer an LD shaft with a natural pivot length well-matched to my preferred bridge length. If the squirt (CB deflection) is reduced too much, with the natural pivot lengths made too long, some of the benefits associated with LD shafts will no longer apply. But in general, the less squirt (and the longer the natural pivot length), the better.

Regards,
Dave

 

[RBC]

Back in May of last year, when we launched the + shafts, we made a change in how we refer to the performance aspects of our shafts. We chose not to refer to them as Low Deflection. What we did do is to state that we have reduced the "Tip End Mass" by at least 13% for each of our models. We have plans to provide actual measured numbers for most or all performance shafts with LD claims or characteristics. We do realize that TEM isn't the only thing that affects cue ball squirt, but it is undoubtedly the biggest contributor and it's also something that can be easily quantified and documented. It appears that Predator has chosen this route as well with their newest -3 shafts claiming a 4% reduction in Tip End Mass.

I think it would be nice to get away from the term LD or low deflection. It leads to confusion and is often misunderstood. It's also become a buzz word that sometimes gets used to describe products that don't really do anything to reduce cue ball squirt.

Pivot points are a good measure, but they too can be confusing. And, to test them properly would require a robot or other mechanized stroking machine.


Royce

 

[JoeyA]

OB Cues makes me proud to be an American!

Pandora's Box has been opened (LD shafts) and while I like the idea of TEM, I am afraid it will take people a decade or more to associate the differences of traditional shafts with high Tip End Mass versus Lower Tip End mass as far as another name is concerned.

I sincerely appreciate the efforts that OB Cues has made in creating an American-made shaft/cue products that can compete on the WORLD STAGE.

Keep up the GREAT WORK and the revolution of improving cue shafts!

Can you be a little more specific about your comment in blue below? What specific products are you referring to? E-mail answer is fine.

Thanks,

JoeyA

Back in May of last year, when we launched the + shafts, we made a change in how we refer to the performance aspects of our shafts. We chose not to refer to them as Low Deflection. What we did do is to state that we have reduced the "Tip End Mass" by at least 13% for each of our models. We have plans to provide actual measured numbers for most or all performance shafts with LD claims or characteristics. We do realize that TEM isn't the only thing that affects cue ball squirt, but it is undoubtedly the biggest contributor and it's also something that can be easily quantified and documented. It appears that Predator has chosen this route as well with their newest -3 shafts claiming a 4% reduction in Tip End Mass.

I think it would be nice to get away from the term LD or low deflection. It leads to confusion and is often misunderstood. It's also become a buzz word that sometimes gets used to describe products that don't really do anything to reduce cue ball squirt.

Pivot points are a good measure, but they too can be confusing. And, to test them properly would require a robot or other mechanized stroking machine.


Royce