Low deflection stroke

[ShootingArts]

A lower deflection stroke would be one that starts off soft and gentle and has minimum grip on the stick to execute. Which brings up things that can be lower deflection, bridge and grip. A loose sloppy bridge is lower deflection than a good open bridge and the old squeaky tight closed bridge is higher deflection than either. I believe a lower deflection bridge is going to have more flaws than advantages so I wouldn't soften up a bridge seeking lower deflection.

I have experimented with the softest grip possible to the tightest death grip possible. All grips work equally well talking about from just firm enough to maintain control of the cue to the tightest grip possible. You do have to adjust to the particular grip you are using. The firmer grips also have the disadvantage of burning a lot of energy and they can make your arm very sore. Trying to define grip is tough. Maybe like shaking hands with a lady or eight to ten year old child. Not dead fish but not much more.

Another question, would the lo7cation of weight in a cue matter as far as how it affects the cue ball? Two nineteen ounce sticks, identical as possible except one is balanced as far back as possible, one as close to the joint as possible. If the cue ball is hit in the same place and in the same direction, say one full tip of side spin, would the cue ball respond the same to both?

What could be gained with harmonic tuning? Few are going to play with the doorknob limbsaver unit hanging on their cue and I believe it is fairly heavy too but harmonic tuners do amazing things with rimfire barrels.

Digressing into rimfire barrels, the original group is usually just an irregular inch to inch and a half group at fifty yards. Then as the tuner is adjusted the groups form a string maybe an inch long. As the tuner is slowly adjusted the strings rotate either clockwise or counter-clockwise but a consistent rotation. Then the groups suck up to maybe one-tenth of the original group size. Some fine tuning each way usually reveals no more gains to be found.

I don't know but I suspect that the footpounds of energy shooting a rimfire are not that far from most pool shots. Might a small inline tuner at the joint be able to improve the harmonics of a shaft? I don't like the soft plastic vault plate/ferrule on carbon fiber shafts because I suspect they are to fix or hide a lousy hit much like the soft plastic joint in aluminum cues of the sixties or seventies. Possibly a tuner could improve the feel of the hit without changing the maximum force transmitted to the cue ball.

Just some rambling thoughts. I'll back the soft gentle stroke with open bridge and the soft handshake pressure grip to minimize deflection. The grip would have more to do with deflection than the stroke but almost impossible to have a soft grip if you have a jerky start to the forward motion of the cue stick.

Hu

 

[straightline]

For the 3 or four of you out there who've never tried it, put the cue ball on the spot, shoot at the far middle diamond with enough side to spin the ball as far above the side pocket as you can. You must nail the middle diamond.

 

[Tin Man]

I'd really need to know the context, but my interpretation is that JJ was making the point that good equipment helps but playing good is better. There is no such thing as a low deflection stroke so I think he was using it as a joke phrase to say "It's the player, not the cue".

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A lower deflection stroke would be one that starts off soft and gentle and has minimum grip on the stick to execute. Which brings up things that can be lower deflection, bridge and grip. A loose sloppy bridge is lower deflection than a good open bridge and the old squeaky tight closed bridge is higher deflection than either.

How can bridge and grip reduce end mass, the source of deflection?

pj
chgo

 

[ChrisinNC]

Sup y’all?

I was watching the junior final at the International Open the other night while I was going to sleep. In between long blinks, I heard Jeremy Jones say:

“You always hear people talk about low deflection shafts, but you never hear people talk about a low deflection stroke.”

It’s really been nagging at me for the last couple days. I’ve been trying to boil it down to a statement that I can relate to. Something like, “a strong player uses just enough spin and speed to get position.” I don’t think I’m seeing the big picture though.

So what factors contribute to a low deflection stroke?

Here’s where I’m at. Feel free to rip me apart; I don’t know spit:

-when using side spin try to minimize squirt. A softer stroke can get you where you need to go without throwing you offline as much. The harder the stroke the more compensation is needed from the intended contact point.
-given a choice roll over stun where cut induced throw needs minimized
-tip placement and quality stroke over trying to cram a ball in to a tight pocket. i.e. drag on a ball tight to the long rail at distance

I feel like all of this just boils down to “just cinch the shot and live to see the next ball,” which I’m sure is not what was intended.

I just don’t know what I don’t know. I’d like to know. Throw me a bone brothas and sistas.

I assume it’s referring to a player that uses an absolute minimal amount of left and right spin. The only way to do that is through playing position leaving the player with the correct angles to easily get the CB to the next ideal location - always planning 3+ balls ahead.

 

[garczar]

Jeremy is a product of the old-school poolroom culture and for that i'm grateful for his talent and knowledge. That being said much of old-shool pool revolved/revolves around folklore and 'old wives' tales when it comes to teaching/methods/etc. A lot of times you hear things that are far more folklore/legend-based than reality. This is an area where modern teaching is way better imo. More fact-based, less folksy stories.

 

[thenaturalpoolplayer]

It's not backhand english...backhand english is just bad form, and does not create low deflection stroke. These is a youtube video on this "low deflection stroke" actually and it has to do with the fulcrum/bridge hand length between the cueball or something. I've never tested it really.

I guess the theory is that if you lengthen the bridge to cue tip distance, then the cue will be more deflective on contact because the distance between the cue tip and the fulcrum (bridge) is longer, versus more rigid when shorter, so it will deflect away from the cueball versus the cueball deflecting away from the cue tip.

 

[garczar]

everybody is wrong. It's not backhand english...backhand english is just bad form, and does not create low deflection stroke. These is a youtube video on this "low deflection stroke" actually and it has to do with the fulcrum/bridge hand length between the cueball or something. I've never tested it really.

i've known a few VERY good players that use BHE all the time. i use it on certain inside english shots myself. you want to knock something at the same time saying you've never tested it. genius. iknow you've only been on here a total of 8days. how long have you played pool? 9?

 

[WobblyStroke]

A lower deflection stroke would be one that starts off soft and gentle and has minimum grip on the stick to execute. Which brings up things that can be lower deflection, bridge and grip. A loose sloppy bridge is lower deflection than a good open bridge and the old squeaky tight closed bridge is higher deflection than either. I believe a lower deflection bridge is going to have more flaws than advantages so I wouldn't soften up a bridge seeking lower deflection.
...
What could be gained with harmonic tuning? Few are going to play with the doorknob limbsaver unit hanging on their cue and I believe it is fairly heavy too but harmonic tuners do amazing things with rimfire barrels.

You raise an interesting point with harmonics of a shaft. I've been doing this since I read it in an old book decades ago but to see if a cue fits your style, you gently hit it with your palm near the joint and watch the shaft vibrate. There will be a quiet spot where the waves of vibration cross over one another. That quiet spot that doesn't move is where your bridge should be making contact with the cue at impact. There is a comfort and hit quality component to the feel of being in the quiet spot, but perhaps there is a benefit to deflection as well? The reasoning being that having the bridge there will allow the cue to jump out of the way of the ball the most meaning the ball will in turn deflect the least with total tip/ball deflection remaining same...it's just that the tip is allowed to move off the aim line more. This is related to your observation above on grip style and deflection...the more snugness/stability in the bridge, the higher the deflection but as the bridge opens or is otherwise less solid, the cue can deflect more, leaving the cue ball to deflect less relative to the line of aim. The total amount of deflection between cue and ball remains the same, it's just as one is allowed to jump off the line more, the other doesn't move as much. Having a loop bridge on the quiet spot allows the shaft to deflect the maximum it naturally wants to so theoretically should perform about the same as an open bridge...or closer to it than a loop on a part of the cue where it wants to vibrate.

 

[ShootingArts]

You raise an interesting point with harmonics of a shaft. I've been doing this since I read it in an old book decades ago but to see if a cue fits your style, you gently hit it with your palm near the joint and watch the shaft vibrate. There will be a quiet spot where the waves of vibration cross over one another. That quiet spot that doesn't move is where your bridge should be making contact with the cue at impact. There is a comfort and hit quality component to the feel of being in the quiet spot, but perhaps there is a benefit to deflection as well? The reasoning being that having the bridge there will allow the cue to jump out of the way of the ball the most meaning the ball will in turn deflect the least with total tip/ball deflection remaining same...it's just that the tip is allowed to move off the aim line more. This is related to your observation above on grip style and deflection...the more snugness/stability in the bridge, the higher the deflection but as the bridge opens or is otherwise less solid, the cue can deflect more, leaving the cue ball to deflect less relative to the line of aim. The total amount of deflection between cue and ball remains the same, it's just as one is allowed to jump off the line more, the other doesn't move as much. Having a loop bridge on the quiet spot allows the shaft to deflect the maximum it naturally wants to so theoretically should perform about the same as an open bridge...or closer to it than a loop on a part of the cue where it wants to vibrate.

I am struggling to remember details from a little digging I did long ago. Harmonics move through end grain wood quite fast. I think three or four times the length of a cue before the cue ball leaves the tip. Some accidental testing with and without a bumper showed that it made quite a difference in feel so tuning should be possible. Seems like one of those ideas that I think about every few years or so and never take further.

Hu

 

[WobblyStroke]

I am struggling to remember details from a little digging I did long ago. Harmonics move through end grain wood quite fast. I think three or four times the length of a cue before the cue ball leaves the tip. Some accidental testing with and without a bumper showed that it made quite a difference in feel so tuning should be possible. Seems like one of those ideas that I think about every few years or so and never take further.

Hu

Would be interesting to tune a cue's harmonics so that the quiet spot moves to where you like your bridge. I had no idea this was possible and thought it just vibrated like it vibrates and that's that. If these vibrational waves are moving up and down the cue 4x before contact is even complete that def adds some credibility to the benefit of having your bridge contact the cue on the spot where those waves cross over and cancel one another.

 

[garczar]

Would be interesting to tune a cue's harmonics so that the quiet spot moves to where you like your bridge. I had no idea this was possible and thought it just vibrated like it vibrates and that's that. If these vibrational waves are moving up and down the cue 4x before contact is even complete that def adds some credibility to the benefit of having your bridge contact the cue on the spot where those waves cross over and cancel one another.

And to think i've played 40yrs without knowing any of this. How did i survive? No offense but this way overthinking things.

 

[FastManners]

I think if i learned about deflection I would start thinking about shots and drop 50 Fargo points. I only started using a low deflection shaft (carbon) a year or so ago and that was mainly because I am clumsy and kept putting dings in my wood shaft.

 

[WobblyStroke]

And to think i've played 40yrs without knowing any of this. How did i survive? No offense but this way overthinking things.

I like golf clubs that fit my swing, why not pick out a cue that fits my stroke too? Luckily I didn't need to overthink anything and just took someone else's overthinking as one thing to look at when considering buying a cue. Check the butt diameter, the shaft diameter, the weight, the balance, and the harmonic. Takes a second and you never have to think about it again.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Would be interesting to tune a cue's harmonics so that the quiet spot moves to where you like your bridge. I had no idea this was possible and thought it just vibrated like it vibrates and that's that. If these vibrational waves are moving up and down the cue 4x before contact is even complete that def adds some credibility to the benefit of having your bridge contact the cue on the spot where those waves cross over and cancel one another.

The sideways vibrations do not have a chance to go even one time up and down the cue stick. They are too slow. They are much slower than the waves along the cue stick which travel about 12000 feet per second and are the ones that put energy into the ball. Also, the sideways vibrations are in multiple modes usually so there is no node (unmoving spot).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The sideways vibrations do not have a chance to go even one time up and down the cue stick. They are too slow. They are much slower than the waves along the cue stick which travel about 12000 feet per second and are the ones that put energy into the ball. Also, the sideways vibrations are in multiple modes usually so there is no node (unmoving spot).

And, if I understand correctly, those sideways vibrations don't directly push the CB to the side (squirt/deflection) - they just determine how much of the shaft's end mass is "involved" in the inertial resistance to being pushed aside by the rotating CB (so the CB pushes itself aside instead).

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

The sideways vibrations do not have a chance to go even one time up and down the cue stick. They are too slow. They are much slower than the waves along the cue stick which travel about 12000 feet per second and are the ones that put energy into the ball. Also, the sideways vibrations are in multiple modes usually so there is no node (unmoving spot).

Bob,

The bumper I was using on two cues was fairly large, one of the thread in or push in bumpers. If you have a cue handy like that try with the bumper on and off, trying a shot that takes a good bit of spin and power. When we hit with the end grain at an angle we may get waves that aren't straight back and forth on the stick. I don't really know the why and wherefore, I didn't expect the bumper or no bumper to make a difference in how the cue handled. I would guess a nineteen ounce cue with a cheap thread wrap, not a finely pressed Irish linen.

I generally use a parallel offset of the cue stick with the tip and buttcap being offset equal amounts. Occasionally I am in the mood to only move the back of the stick other than slight adjustments for accuracy.

I don't want my last bumper of that type to get loose fitting in the butt so I decided to not bother swapping back yet again after I had swapped several times practicing with each cue. The wrapless cue I play with most doesn't like a slipstroke unless I apply a little powder which I prefer not to. Anyway, the thread wrapped cue went from being just another cue with the bumper in it to plain obnoxious "twanggy" when I tried leaving it off. If convenient give this a try to see what I am talking about.

Possibly the end grain primary harmonic is not traveling straight up the end grain with side applied then the vibration in the slower acting wood would only have to move a tiny distance from the end grain next to it to the outside of the cue. The bulk of the distance from the tip would be around 12000FPS and only a tiny distance traveled at the slower side wave speed.

I haven't tried to isolate the exact mechanism of how the hit changed so much but it certainly did, in that one cue when I played it without a bumper. I let family members use the better cue with the bumper and I played the bumperless cue other times too, definitely obnoxious!

I don't remember changes in cue ball deflection at the moment so I don't know if the unsatisfactory harmonics occurred during the hit or afterwards. Really need a robot for a lot of this testing.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I generally use a parallel offset of the cue stick with the tip and buttcap being offset equal amounts.

At the right speed, distance and butt elevation to create just enough swerve to compensate for squirt? (Assuming "parallel" means parallel with the direction you want the CB to go.)

pj
chgo

 

[phreaticus]

At the right speed, distance and butt elevation to create just enough swerve to compensate for squirt? (Assuming "parallel" means parallel with the direction you want the CB to go.)

pj
chgo

i assume you are being facetious, but not sure. Do you believe that ones stroking style can innately & consistently do this?

 

[ShootingArts]

At the right speed, distance and butt elevation to create just enough swerve to compensate for squirt? (Assuming "parallel" means parallel with the direction you want the CB to go.)

pj
chgo

pj,

Your assumption is in error.

Hu