low-squirt cue info and poll

[dr_dave]

FYI, I recently wrote an article for Billiards Digest about low-squirt cues. Here it is:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/dec07.pdf
​

I also have a summary of low-squirt cue info here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt
​

Before I had posted any of this information, I did a poll on that "other" online forum (BD CCB). Now, I'd like to see what you guys think, especially after you look through the information I have posted. Here's the poll background info:

A low-squirt (AKA "low cue-ball deflection") cue creates less squirt (i.e., the cue ball heads closer to the stick's aiming line direction when struck). Therefore, not as much aim adjustment or compensation is required when using English with a low-squirt cue. However, the value of this is debatable ... hence this poll. I hope people from both sides of the argument will participate in the poll and add comments for discussion.

Can a low-squirt cue make a player better, and can it help one level of player more than other levels? When answering the question, assume the player has always used the same cue. So you are comparing how good the player would be if they had always used a low-squirt cue vs. how good they would be if they had always used a cue with more squirt (e.g., twice the amount of squirt as the low-squirt cue). Assume all other factors are equal. Also assume that the player uses English (i.e., squirt will be a factor).

I know that there might be more options, and these options might not be perfect; but please try to select what you think is the best of the answers provided, and add comments if necessary to better explain your position.

I look forward to seeing the poll results and your comments.

Regards,
Dave

 

[av84fun]

I voted for any player at any level but I think you need another category...

Any player except a pro-level player who learned on standard shafts.

For such players, transitioning to a L/D shaft could be a huge mistake.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Fatboy]

I know a top top top pro and he can play good with anything, from a 18 oz cue to a 22 oz cue at one point in his career, but thats just natural talent, something 99.99999% of us dont have. It is amazing to me what I have seen knowing him. Any cue is perfect for him. I cant say who it is, its not important, its just amazing what talent can do for the gifted.

However since the rest of us struggle your survey brings up some interesting points, here is my opinion,

Aside from that I believe that low deflection equipment would benefit the average player, the sooner they start useing it the better, speaking for myself after playing 25 years I cant make it work, so its irrelevant-for me only, but I believe that for people getting into the game that are of average skill level and talent yes low deflection equipment would benefit them after a few years of playing with proper instruction. Additionally your work on this topic Dave which I have followed for the past year is very useful. Thank you.

 

[dr_dave]

NOTE TO OTHERS: please read the post under the poll first!

I voted for any player at any level but I think you need another category...

Any player except a pro-level player who learned on standard shafts.

For such players, transitioning to a L/D shaft could be a huge mistake.

Good point. That's why I have the following statement in my poll announcement message:

When answering the question, assume the player has always used the same cue. So you are comparing how good the player would be if they had always used a low-squirt cue vs. how good they would be if they had always used a cue with more squirt (e.g., twice the amount of squirt as the low-squirt cue)​

I am hoping people will read the message before answering the poll, but I realize this might not be the case. I wanted to add a statement to the poll to read my post first, but the software doesn't allow this (that I know of anyway).

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Why should a low-squirt cue help?

for people getting into the game that are of average skill level and talent yes low deflection equipment would benefit them after a few years of playing with proper instruction.

Why do you think this? I present an argument in my article and summary page, but I want to see what other people think.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Fatboy]

Why do you think this? I present an argument in my article and summary page, but I want to see what other people think.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave I will answere this a bit later, I want to read the articles and give this some thought-not a off the cuff answere. I'm rather busy now so please give me sometime and I will address your question, nice to meet you, I appologize for my spelling, i'm not as dumb as my spelling would lead you to believe, infact I would like to get to know you.

kindest regards


eric

 

[dr_dave]

comments after material review

Dave I will answere this a bit later, I want to read the articles and give this some thought-not a off the cuff answere. I'm rather busy now so please give me sometime and I will address your question, nice to meet you, I appologize for my spelling, i'm not as dumb as my spelling would lead you to believe, infact I would like to get to know you.

Eric,

No rush. I look forward to reading comments from you and others about the posted material and the poll. I also look forward to getting to know you and others better.

Regards,
Dave

 

[PKM]

I picked the first option, perhaps it would be more accurate to say it would be easier to reach any given level of play since most would probably agree that standard shafts have not held back the top players.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

All the best players and pros I know can play with anything. By the time you're playing at that level, you learn to adjust very fast. You're also aware of what's happening on every shot (squirt, swerve) and you're in tune with your body to know how to manipulate the cue and runout.

I know a top top top pro and he can play good with anything, from a 18 oz cue to a 22 oz cue at one point in his career, but thats just natural talent, something 99.99999% of us dont have. It is amazing to me what I have seen knowing him. Any cue is perfect for him. I cant say who it is, its not important, its just amazing what talent can do for the gifted.

However since the rest of us struggle your survey brings up some interesting points, here is my opinion,

Aside from that I believe that low deflection equipment would benefit the average player, the sooner they start useing it the better, speaking for myself after playing 25 years I cant make it work, so its irrelevant-for me only, but I believe that for people getting into the game that are of average skill level and talent yes low deflection equipment would benefit them after a few years of playing with proper instruction. Additionally your work on this topic Dave which I have followed for the past year is very useful. Thank you.

 

[olauzon]

voted 'any player at any level would be better with a low-squirt cue'. with a reasonable amount of instruction on what the differences are; i just have a hard time believing that even the top player would not like lesser deflection. the time span of reaching complete comfort will be individual. and with that being said, a positive outcome depends on a positive mindset. skeptics will only waste their time and talk crap about LDs.

 

[Runnin8]

I have to go with the opinion that less correction is better as a rule so any player would benefit from a low deflection shaft, once they make the adjustment. I know that my consistency in firmly hit long cuts with english has gotten much better since the switch. Can anyone play well with any cue given time- yes. I just know that personally my game took a leap once I went to the OB-1 shaft.

 

[av84fun]

All the best players and pros I know can play with anything. By the time you're playing at that level, you learn to adjust very fast. You're also aware of what's happening on every shot (squirt, swerve) and you're in tune with your body to know how to manipulate the cue and runout.

They CAN play with anything but they don't play with anything. I have not done a study of the pro's migration from one cue to the next but I'd be willing to bet that pros, on average, change cues about 1/10th of the frequency of amateurs.

Regards,
Jim

 

[ShootingArts]

always played with

When you include "always played with" there is no advantage to a low squirt or plain shaft at the top level. Knowing your equipment is everything. I think it was Joe Davis that said that most of the upper level snooker players of his day were done if something happened to their cue. The author I an thinking of lost one cue and hunted another one for I believe two years before finding one that he liked. It was lost temporarily later and he planned to retire rather than face the battle of finding another cue or trying to compensate for one that played differently.

Maybe only obliquely related to the thread starter but I think that a major reason that many players never reach quite the level they are capable of is that they spend too much time chasing the perfect tip, perfect shaft, perfect cue, on and on instead of learning to use something that works well.

I am more wary of the man that has played with the same shaft and tip or tip brand for the last decade or two than I am of the guy that has the latest fad shaft whatever it may be.

Hu

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

Right on the money, as usual.
However, I feel there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both low squirt
and high squirt shafts.
-cOOp

When you include "always played with" there is no advantage to a low squirt or plain shaft at the top level. Knowing your equipment is everything. I think it was Joe Davis that said that most of the upper level snooker players of his day were done if something happened to their cue. The author I an thinking of lost one cue and hunted another one for I believe two years before finding one that he liked. It was lost temporarily later and he planned to retire rather than face the battle of finding another cue or trying to compensate for one that played differently.

Maybe only obliquely related to the thread starter but I think that a major reason that many players never reach quite the level they are capable of is that they spend too much time chasing the perfect tip, perfect shaft, perfect cue, on and on instead of learning to use something that works well.

I am more wary of the man that has played with the same shaft and tip or tip brand for the last decade or two than I am of the guy that has the latest fad shaft whatever it may be.

Hu

 

[jingle]

A bump for Dr. Dave. Only 31 votes so far? I KNOW AZBer's can do better than that.

 

[dr_dave]

standard shafts don't hold back pros

I picked the first option, perhaps it would be more accurate to say it would be easier to reach any given level of play since most would probably agree that standard shafts have not held back the top players.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. For example, do you think a pro could have reached a high level of play faster with a low-squirt cue?

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

pros don't need low-squirt cues

All the best players and pros I know can play with anything. By the time you're playing at that level, you learn to adjust very fast. You're also aware of what's happening on every shot (squirt, swerve) and you're in tune with your body to know how to manipulate the cue and runout.

... but you think beginner and intermediate players can be better if they have played with a low-squirt cue for a while?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

advantages and disadvantages

...I feel there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both low squirt and high squirt shafts.

I don't think all of the advantages and disadvantages are necessarily "obvious" to or well understood by most people. I discuss some in my article and summary page. Here's a quick summary:

advantages of low-squirt cues:

1. If one is not good at compensating one's aim for squirt, a lower squirt cue might result in better consistency and accuracy on certain shots.
   
2. A low-squirt cue might offer a slight improvement in accuracy when English is being used (per Diagram 2 and the discussion in the article).
   
3. A low squirt cue might enable slightly larger effective tip offsets (and slightly more English), but this effect is negligible (per the data in my summary page).

disadvantages of low-squirt cues:

1. A "low-squirt" cue can be expensive.
   
2. If one is used to compensating one's aim with a higher-squirt cue, it might be difficult to adjust to the lower-squirt cue.
   
3. Some people might not like the "feel," "sound," or "look" of a low-squirt cue.
   
4. A low-squirt cue might not be as mechanically sound over long-term use (i.e., the shaft end might not be as strong and tough).
   
5. If someone hits lots of slower-speed English shots, and he or she is used to a higher squirt helping to cancel some or all of the swerve, then he or she might have trouble adjusting to a low-squirt cue (where more swerve compensation would be required for these shots).

Do you guys have any comments on these or have others to offer?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[PKM]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. For example, do you think a pro could have reached a high level of play faster with a low-squirt cue?

Regards,
Dave

That would be my guess, but it is a highly uneducated opinion.

However one interesting thing to consider, if it is true that nearly all pros pivot in some way to apply English, usually with a combination of backhand and fronthand English (as I believe Joe Tucker contends they do, often subconsciously), then is there that much of a difference in learning with either type of cue? Either way you would just learn to pivot a little differently.

 

[MBTaylor]

I used to shoot with a Predator 5K2 with a 314-2 Shaft.

The big reason I switched is because of how expensive they are and the hassle that is involved with getting something like the ferrule replaced. I say hassle, because the onyl way someone local would have been able to repair/replace the ferrule would be to put a tenon in the shaft, thereby effectively eliminating the whole purpose of the shaft design. The only alternatives available, would be to throw the broken shaft away and buy a new one or send it off the Predator.

Having said that, when I did break a ferrule, I contacted Predator and had a new shaft in about 1 1/2 weeks. The service and speed was incredible and Predator deserves HUGE KUDOS on their customer service.

I have started shooting with a Frey sneaky pete and have a Sly sneaky on the way. The adjustment was horrendous as most of my progress and learning was done over the 1 1/2 years I was shooting with the Predator so I was horrible at compensating for squirt.

Things are starting to settle back in and I actually prefer the solid shaft to the Predator shafts.

MAYBE, when Capone and Gulyassy have their LD shafts available, I may try one of theirs out because both use standard ferrules. Huge benefit because should a ferrule crack, it is easily replaced.