# Machinist Level

#### EL Picos

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When a guy doesn't know how to calculate simple things, i wouldn't rely on him for more technical questions.

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You will have to edfit an other time, a level of .0002/10inch is 20.83333 time more sensitive than a .005/12inch
Actually I had 20 times more sensitive first, going by the same logic you just did. But upon further investigation, the vials on the two levels claim an angular precision of 10 seconds on the master precision level, and 80-90 seconds on the Starrett 98-xx level. Dividing those two numbers gives about 8 times. Thus I edited it from 20x to 8x.

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Actually I had 20 times more sensitive first, going by the same logic you just did. But upon further investigation, the vials on the two levels claim an angular precision of 10 seconds on the master precision level, and 80-90 seconds on the Starrett 98-xx level. Dividing those two numbers gives about 8 times. Thus I edited it from 20x to 8x.
This is spellbinding stuff. There won't be a test i hope.

#### Ssonerai

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
80 arc sec=> .00388/10"
90 =>.00436/10"

.00821/2 average = .0041"/10"

10 arc sec => .000485"/10"

8.453608247 times.

This is spellbinding stuff.

Bickering or arithmetic?

There won't be a test i hope

Bickering is the test.

smt

#### EL Picos

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Check what is writted on the level

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Check what is writted on the level View attachment 601424
Right. And the text description states 10 seconds. They are in conflict. Who knows which is correct, they could both be pulled out of thin air as the Chinese knockoff tools can be anything. The only thing that can be proven with this information is my math was not incorrect as you claimed

Here is the Starrett 199. It is 10 seconds for comparison, and states .0005" per 12". I doubt the knockoff is a finer resolution, but who knows. https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/199Z

Here is the master precision level I own. I bought it probably 15 years ago on eBay. I just put in the model number from the box and the same level is on Amazon for \$100. It too states "10 seconds" but the ad copy says .0005"/10", and it also says .0005"/10" on the physical level. https://www.amazon.com/SHARS-Master...ild=1&keywords=303-9503&qid=1625749164&sr=8-1

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member

Here is my set. I like tools

Reading of all 3 levels. My table rolls pretty good. I did the best I could (as an enthusiast, not a professional). I used the two starretts on this table, and kept the knockoff in the box. I only relevelled the table after moving it around the existing room. It was set up by pros 10 years prior. I only touched the ball bearing leveling feet on the GC4. I did not touch the slate. From memory, this is about the worst reading on the table. I think the rest is a bit better. But I did it a year ago, so my memory can be off. The point is even with these numbers, it rolls pretty good.

Here I'm going to place a .003" shim under one end.

Shim under.

Other end is all lined up.

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member

The readably of the 98 is much better from an angle. To see the bubble on the master precision knockoff you have to have your head almost directly over the level. Doable for me (I'm 6'-3" tall), but certainly not as convenient.

Anyway its your money spend it as you wish Plus with Amazon if you don't like it you can return it. The knockoff I have definitely feels like a good quality. I don't know why they never knocked off the 98.

#### fastone371

##### Certifiable
Silver Member
Price is always the first thing I look at.

With tools I look at the quality of the tool before the price. Often when shopping by price you get what you pay for. I cant knock Starrett's seemingly high prices because they are very nice precision tools.

#### Sheldon

##### dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
Looks like it might be time to calibrate the Starretts.
View attachment 601447
Here is my set. I like tools

View attachment 601448
Reading of all 3 levels. My table rolls pretty good. I did the best I could (as an enthusiast, not a professional). I used the two starretts on this table, and kept the knockoff in the box. I only relevelled the table after moving it around the existing room. It was set up by pros 10 years prior. I only touched the ball bearing leveling feet on the GC4. I did not touch the slate. From memory, this is about the worst reading on the table. I think the rest is a bit better. But I did it a year ago, so my memory can be off. The point is even with these numbers, it rolls pretty good.

View attachment 601449
Here I'm going to place a .003" shim under one end.

View attachment 601450
Shim under.

View attachment 601451
Other end is all lined up.

View attachment 601452

#### trentfromtoledo

##### 8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
With tools I look at the quality of the tool before the price. Often when shopping by price you get what you pay for. I cant knock Starrett's seemingly high prices because they are very nice precision tools.
i concur, back to traveling the country installing!

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
View attachment 601447
Here is my set. I like tools

View attachment 601448
Reading of all 3 levels. My table rolls pretty good. I did the best I could (as an enthusiast, not a professional). I used the two starretts on this table, and kept the knockoff in the box. I only relevelled the table after moving it around the existing room. It was set up by pros 10 years prior. I only touched the ball bearing leveling feet on the GC4. I did not touch the slate. From memory, this is about the worst reading on the table. I think the rest is a bit better. But I did it a year ago, so my memory can be off. The point is even with these numbers, it rolls pretty good.

View attachment 601449
Here I'm going to place a .003" shim under one end.

View attachment 601450
Shim under.

View attachment 601451
Other end is all lined up.

View attachment 601452
I'm lost as to what you're doing with the shim and levels

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm lost as to what you're doing with the shim and levels
Showing how much more the bubble moves on the master precision level as compared to the 98 level for the same amount of non-level.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Showing how much more the bubble moves on the master precision level as compared to the 98 level for the same amount of non-level.
Oh, ok. That's why I use the 98 levels, because to use a level that sensitive you'll never be able to level the slates on a pool table, all you end up doing is chasing your tail around like a dog.

#### iusedtoberich

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Oh, ok. That's why I use the 98 levels, because to use a level that sensitive you'll never be able to level the slates on a pool table, all you end up doing is chasing your tail around like a dog.
Right. Thatās what I was attempting to show that the bubble moves too much and you lose perspective of where it is. I didnāt try a thicker shim to see if it jumped so far towards the end of the vial if it would disappear almost entirely. Iām traveling a few states away from my levels nowā¦

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Right. Thatās what I was attempting to show that the bubble moves too much and you lose perspective of where it is. I didnāt try a thicker shim to see if it jumped so far towards the end of the vial if it would disappear almost entirely. Iām traveling a few states away from my levels nowā¦
That was my point about using an 8ft straight edge and thickness feeler gages....impossible to do because you can't change the flatness of slate in small sections in order to make a slate more level

#### GideonF

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Oh, ok. That's why I use the 98 levels, because to use a level that sensitive you'll never be able to level the slates on a pool table, all you end up doing is chasing your tail around like a dog.

This will no doubt make you scratch your head at my stupidity, but I think itās a funny story. I have a Valley table in an unheated out building at my cottage in Canada. The table (or the floor) settled and was now unlevel. We were in Covid lockdown and I couldnāt get a mechanic.

I donāt own a Starret but had a 24ā and 48ā carpenter level and figured I could make it more level at least. Spent probably 5 hours chasing my tail - readings made no sense and I had no low corner of the table.

After almost burning the place down in frustration I googled how to test if your level is broken. Sure enough the 24ā level was giving different readings depending on whether it was facing one way or the other. Used the 48ā level exclusively and got it āokayā in like 45 minutes. Iām not sure Iāve ever felt dumber in my life.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Happens to table mechanics all the time, if they don't know how to check the level for true readings.

#### Fatboy

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I figured for the first time in the last 10 years since I have been here that I throw some opinion out for everyone, I mean cmon, 4 pages of bickering??? If you guys are so attracted to each other swipe right or whatever they do on dating sites and take it somewhere else.
4 pages? That was a short one lol. I donāt get it.

Best
Fatboy