Making a 45 degree cut with Tops, Bottoms and Center ball hits

[lewdo26]

As Jim pointed out, with a small amount of outside english, you'll throw the ball to the right, and with a large amount of outside english, you'll throw the ball to the left. "Large" and "small" here depend on the cut angle. With outside english, the rubbing could be in either direction because the relative surface speed due to the english is opposite to the relative surface speed due to the cut, and it is the *net* relative surface speed that matters.

mike page
fargo

Aha! So using inside english, both CIT and sidespin throw the OB in a *single* direction. Whereas, OE throws the OB in the *opposite* direction of CIT (and that's why OE pundits use it to cancel CIT). Therefore you'll need a greater amount of OE to overwhelm the CIT force, especially without vertical spin.

And I imagine, the flatter the cut angle, the more OE you'll have to use to offset the sideways rub.

Now, why the hell did Efren say sometimes you got to use IE to reduce CIT?

And is the jury still out on whether bottom and topspin reduce CIT to the same extent (as Bob Jewett concludes in his lates BD article)?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Aha! So using inside english, both CIT and sidespin throw the OB in a *single* direction. Whereas, OE throws the OB in the *opposite* direction of CIT (and that's why OE pundits use it to cancel CIT). Therefore you'll need a greater amount of OE to overwhelm the CIT force, especially without vertical spin.

I find that IE only works to add throw on soft shots and not a ton of spin. Hit it medium speed and with more IE and the friction coefficient seems to reduce, making the throw angle about the same as for follow at medium speed (natural roll).

And I imagine, the flatter the cut angle, the more OE you'll have to use to offset the sideways rub.

Not sure about that. Generally 1/4 to 1/2 a tip of OE works well for most shots, but if the stun shot is played firm no OE is required as the friction coefficient reduces with speed.

Now, why the hell did Efren say sometimes you got to use IE to reduce CIT?

As shown in my video, and as I said above, on medium and higher speed IE shots (and with more IE), the friction coefficient seems to parallel follow and draw shots. But with medium speed OE, its effect on throw is still very noticeable...but less with a component of top or bottom spin on the shot.

And is the jury still out on whether bottom and topspin reduce CIT to the same extent (as Bob Jewett concludes in his lates BD article)?

In my tests they appear to be the same. Or so similar that I don't make allowances for them. Though on soft shots (would be small distance between CB and OB to do this with draw), the throw with follow could be noticeably greater...resembling a stun shot throw.

This is worth considering when playing slow roll pots (all distances) and slow nip draw shots when in close to the balls.

There is no simple formula, but most effects can be explained and adjusted for. It's likely to give most players paralysis by analysis, but if practiced enough, the adjustments can be learned well and become quite automatic. I'm sure even many very good players miss regularly because they did not account properly for throw.

Also, because many players are aware that they struggle with certain types of shots that require different aim, they avoid these shots, reducing their options at the table.

 

[recoveryjones]

Thanks for all the responses and feedback to my thread,VERY much appreciated.This is turning into a really good thread.

Can you knowledgable guys(mike Page, Colin.Jal, Mn shooter or anyone else) diagram some shots on the Wei table for everyone explaining how to make certain shots easier when it come to cinching balls.

For instance on some cut angles outside english will be more beneficial and on others inside english will make the shots easier. On other shots tops and bottoms are preffered as opposed to stun.Or how about some easier ways to make thin cuts or thick cuts.Or how about slow, moderate and fast speed cuts and effects of english at different speeds?

If you guys (in the know) could post up some shots examples (the more the merrier on the wei table) that we can all set up and practice, that would be appreciated.I think posting up on the wei board could possibly make all the verbal knowledge expressed here much more learnable.

Bert Kinister on some of his videos("the secrets of shotmaking" and "the secrets of long hard shots") reccomends aiming left or right of the pocket by a few to several inches on several NO SIDE SPIN shots.If you are constantly missing certain shots in the same way(left or right) it may not be a crooked stroke, but rather an optical illusion,henceforth Bert's recomendations.I highly reccomend anyone to purchase these Kinister videos.This great stuff by "Ding Dong Daddy."

RJ

ps. When RJ gets on that certain money ball, he wants to find out the easiest way to cinch it and bring home the cash

 

[recoveryjones]

Here's an example of some shots I'm talking about. It appears (by the yellow arrow) that if you hit this shot dead on you will miss the pocket by a few inches.Shoot this shot medium hard or hard dead on(no cut) and to your amazement it will go in.I don't know if the subconcsious mind makes an adjustment or if the shot is an optical illusion (the way it appears on a real table and not the wei table illustration) however, the shot goes in time and time again.Cut it a bit and don't be surpirsed if you miss(occasionally) to the left on shot#1 and to the right on shot #2..Try lining up the one ball even a little further(an inch at a time) wide of the pocket(on both shots) and aim dead on and you may find them go in as well.You may be surprised how far left or right of the pocket you line up the one ball and it still goes in when you aim dead on ,NO side spin.Why this works, I have absolutley no idea.

Colin, Mike, Jal, Mn, why does this happen? ...help!!!!

Try these two shots aiming dead on NO SIDE SPIN on as illustrated by the wei table.


Shot #1

START(
%Ai2H6%PJ4Q9%Ur0E9%VJ6Q8

)END

If the one ball goes in for you with a dead on no side spin hit,try moving the one ball an inch to the right and shoot again.

Shot#2

START(
%Ab0Z0%PM1Z5%Ur5Y5%VL5Z5

)END

If the one ball goes in for you aiming dead on No side spin , try moving the one ball a tad more to the left and shoot again to test the parameters of this shot.Why this works I don't know, but I see people overcutting this shot time and time again into the right hand long rail.

And here's one more shot to try.

START(
%Ao6L9%PI2S4%Un9L9%VI5S4%Wp7D6%Xo4L6

)END

This shot is undercut more often than not (and rarely over cut), so aim as illustrated on the wei table and watch it drop.

RJ

If it works, add it to your arsenal. If it doesn't , don't give me no flack!...LOL

set the shots up optically, as it may be an illusion

 

[jsp]

And is the jury still out on whether bottom and topspin reduce CIT to the same extent (as Bob Jewett concludes in his lates BD article)?

Does anyone have a PDF of Bob's article? I'd really like to read it.

Was wondering if his article was inspired by some of the pasts thread discussions we've had on this topic...

Throw and draw shots?

effect bottom has on an object ball when cutting?

OB Throw Video for the Physics Nerds

OE vs. IE on the money ball

 

[Tennesseejoe]

I have noticed on this straight pool breakshot: using high inside english tends to send the object ball towards the short rail while using outside draw tends to send the object ball towards the long rail. Could this discussion topic be part of my problem and have others experienced this?

START(
%AM0S6%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PW0T4
)END

 

[Colin Colenso]

Here's an example of some shots I'm talking about. It appears (by the yellow arrow) that if you hit this shot dead on you will miss the pocket by a few inches.Shoot this shot medium hard or hard dead on(no cut) and to your amazement it will go in.I don't know if the subconcsious mind makes an adjustment or if the shot is an optical illusion (the way it appears on a real table and not the wei table illustration) however, the shot goes in time and time again.Cut it a bit and don't be surpirsed if you miss(occasionally) to the left on shot#1 and to the right on shot #2..Try lining up the one ball even a little further(an inch at a time) wide of the pocket(on both shots) and aim dead on and you may find them go in as well.You may be surprised how far left or right of the pocket you line up the one ball and it still goes in when you aim dead on ,NO side spin.Why this works, I have absolutley no idea.

Colin, Mike, Jal, Mn, why does this happen? ...help!!!!

Try these two shots aiming dead on NO SIDE SPIN on as illustrated by the wei table.


Shot #1

START(
%Ai2H6%PJ4Q9%Ur0E9%VJ6Q8

)END

If the one ball goes in for you with a dead on no side spin hit,try moving the one ball an inch to the right and shoot again.

Shot#2

START(
%Ab0Z0%PM1Z5%Ur5Y5%VL5Z5

)END

If the one ball goes in for you aiming dead on No side spin , try moving the one ball a tad more to the left and shoot again to test the parameters of this shot.Why this works I don't know, but I see people overcutting this shot time and time again into the right hand long rail.

And here's one more shot to try.

START(
%Ao6L9%PI2S4%Un9L9%VI5S4%Wp7D6%Xo4L6

)END

This shot is undercut more often than not (and rarely over cut), so aim as illustrated on the wei table and watch it drop.

RJ

If it works, add it to your arsenal. If it doesn't , don't give me no flack!...LOL

set the shots up optically, as it may be an illusion

Hi RJ,
(Though these examples you gave are unrelated to throw)
My interpretations of these common effects you refered to:

Low Angle Cuts
With an intent to pocket an Object Ball, and with the visual imput of the pocket position, the sub-conscious mind...or intuitive judgement, tends to align the shot close to the angle required to make the pot.

Often, when we look at the shot, there is a sense that we are aligned full ball / straight on, but actually we are not. So often, the player is tempted to shift their aim for more angle, or to swipe slightly across the CB to turn it toward the pocket. Hence, the shot is often missed by overcutting.

High Angle Cuts
There seems to be a natural inclination to not want to aim at the extreme edges of the OB. Perhaps it is due to the tendency to aim the cue at the pointg of contact, and not to take into account the fact that the center of the CB must be aimed to miss the OB, such that the contact points connect as required.

On both these shots, many will find a quick fix by aiming full at the low angle shot, and aiming thin on the high angle shot, but repeat those shots 20 times and you'll tend to start hitting the low angle shot too straight, and overcutting the high angled shot.

These solutions address the symptom rather than the cause. The tendencies shouls be noted, but the player should work toward a clearer understanding of what is being aimed to what, and the nature of one's intuitive judgement (feel) in determining how to aim.

The best solution is a lot of practice and a true understanding of what contact points are required and how one can visualize and align to them. IMHO.

Re: Examples as requested in earlier post.
There are so many examples I could never show them all. I hope I get some time to diagram a couple of representative shots to show how compensation for IE and OE work on typical shots.

Colin

 

[Bob Jewett]

Does anyone have a PDF of Bob's article? I'd really like to read it.

... [/URL]

That would be http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-05.pdf

or generally: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

 

[Bob Jewett]

Set up a 45 degree cut ...

Now(experiment) cut that shot in with tops,bottoms and a center ball with a half ball (aiming) hit(slow to medium pace) and check out the results. A half ball hit is aiming the center of the cue ball to the outside edge of the object ball.If you do this experiment you will find that the object ball is potted with tops and bottoms...

No, I will not. A half-ball hit will cause a cut close to 30 degrees, not 45. I suspect that there is something very wrong with your aiming if you pocket a 45-degree cut with a half-ball attempt. Try cutting in the other direction to see if there is some left/right problem in your vision.

As mentioned elsewhere, draw and follow can change the cut angle by around 3 degrees or so.

If you want to know the fullness for various cut angles (without throw), see the plot at http://www.sfbilliards.com/fract.pdf

There are some other items about fractional aiming at http://www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here's an example of some shots I'm talking about. It appears (by the yellow arrow) that if you hit this shot dead on you will miss the pocket by a few inches.Shoot this shot medium hard or hard dead on(no cut) and to your amazement it will go in. ...

If it works, add it to your arsenal. If it doesn't , don't give me no flack!...LOL
...

If you can set up a shot that is off of straight by a ball diameter or two and you can hit the ball straight and it goes in, you have indeed found something fabulous. My suspicion is that you don't hit the ball straight. Here is how you can tell whether you hit the ball straight: the cue ball will not go to the left or right if you hit the object ball straight on.

From your initial question and this shot, I have to conclude that you are not seeing the shots accurately. When you find an instructor, have him check your shot alignment the first thing.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I have noticed on this straight pool breakshot: using high inside english tends to send the object ball towards the short rail while using outside draw tends to send the object ball towards the long rail. Could this discussion topic be part of my problem and have others experienced this?
...

When you use side spin several things happen to the shot that will affect the cut angle. Those include squirt, swerve and throw. Additionally, if you are playing the shot to really smash the balls, the cue ball may well be in the air when it hits the object ball. The effects are:

inside english: squirt=thinner, swerve=fuller, throw=maybe either, depending, jump=thinner

outside english: squirt=thicker, swerve=thinner, throw=thinner, probably, jump=thinner

There are lots of complications. For example, suppose you jump a little and land just at the object ball. In that case, there will be no swerve, since swerve requires the cue ball to rub on the cloth, and it can't rub on the cloth while it's in the air. If the swerve would have made the cut thinner, then the jump is effectively making the cut fuller because it takes away the swerve.

I think the only solution is to practice. Try keeping your stick as level as possible.

 

[Jal]

...
btw. In my tests (my balls may be a bit dirty, and hitting out of a dimple on a heavy nap cloth may exaggerate throw), but the variation on a half ball hit between slow stun and a lot of OE was over 6 degrees or 13 inches over 7 feet. So hitting the same contact point, with the wrong spin can cause a player to miss by half a diamond either side for long shots if they align for natural roll angle.

Colin

Yes, you're right Colin, it can make a major difference. When I said that throw is typically less than a degree, I guess I was thinking about when the cueball is rolling or has full reverse roll (draw) on it. If it has about half of natural roll or half of full draw it's typically a little more than a degree at moderate cut angles. These figures are for around lag speed on the cueball (~5 mph).

Jim

 

[Jal]

Does anyone have a PDF of Bob's article? I'd really like to read it.

Hi Jsp,

If you've looked you've probably found it by now, but here is a link. The second one is to his page where he has all of his BD articles. The one in question is the last on that page.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-05.pdf

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

Jim

 

[recoveryjones]

If you can set up a shot that is off of straight by a ball diameter or two and you can hit the ball straight and it goes in, you have indeed found something fabulous. My suspicion is that you don't hit the ball straight. Here is how you can tell whether you hit the ball straight: the cue ball will not go to the left or right if you hit the object ball straight on.

From your initial question and this shot, I have to conclude that you are not seeing the shots accurately. When you find an instructor, have him check your shot alignment the first thing.

Hi Bob,
I can hit a straight in pot shot with no sideways movement.Not 100% of the time, however, I can do it quite consistently.
Those shots I posted are on Bert Kinister instructional DVD's and the reccomended "Dead on Aim" is suggested by Bert.

I like you, think this teaching is insanity......however when the ball goes in I can't argue with the results.Bert goes on to state that many shots in pool are optical illusions

I aim it (Dead on) on left hand pocket cuts and right hand pocket cuts and the ball goes in.I guess maybe the subconcsious mind compensates as I have no logical explanation why the ball goes in aimed this way.Set the shots up and try them for yourself.

RJ

 

[Bob Jewett]

Hi Bob,
I can hit a straight in pot shot with no sideways movement.Not 100% of the time, however, I can do it quite consistently.
...

I'm not sure I understand even this much of what you are saying. You seem to be saying that

1. you set up a long shot, which if the object ball went along the straight line joining the center of the cue ball and the object ball it would hit a distance of a ball and a half from the pocket (not touching the jaws at all) and

2. you shoot full at the the ball without side spin, striking it full and

3. you verify that the cue ball has struck the object ball full by the fact that it has no sideways motion and

4. you sometimes make the shot.

If that's all true, I simply don't believe you. Which part am I missing?

I'm betting that if you set up the shot described above and make it, the cue ball will move to the usual side for a cut in that direction, and that means that you didn't hit the ball full. Your mind may be thinking "full" but your arm knows what to do to make the ball.

 

[mnShooter]

What he is saying is that we subconsciously adjust to make an almost straight in (<15 degrees) shot. So you just aim straight at the ball and it goes in. The cueball doesn't actually hit the object ball dead straight. That's just what you aim at.

It's on one of Bert's tapes- Aiming secrets or something like that.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Yes, you're right Colin, it can make a major difference. When I said that throw is typically less than a degree, I guess I was thinking about when the cueball is rolling or has full reverse roll (draw) on it. If it has about half of natural roll or half of full draw it's typically a little more than a degree at moderate cut angles. These figures are for around lag speed on the cueball (~5 mph).

Jim

I thought you must have meant that Jim, just adding some detail. One degree is also about the difference I found between roll and full draw lag speed.
Colin

 

[Tennesseejoe]

When you use side spin several things happen to the shot that will affect the cut angle. Those include squirt, swerve and throw. Additionally, if you are playing the shot to really smash the balls, the cue ball may well be in the air when it hits the object ball. The effects are:

inside english: squirt=thinner, swerve=fuller, throw=maybe either, depending, jump=thinner

outside english: squirt=thicker, swerve=thinner, throw=thinner, probably, jump=thinner

There are lots of complications. For example, suppose you jump a little and land just at the object ball. In that case, there will be no swerve, since swerve requires the cue ball to rub on the cloth, and it can't rub on the cloth while it's in the air. If the swerve would have made the cut thinner, then the jump is effectively making the cut fuller because it takes away the swerve.

I think the only solution is to practice. Try keeping your stick as level as possible.

Thanks Bob,

I didn't even think about the jump effect. After much practice I have left the aiming up to my subconscious and this seems to work.

I really appreciate your opinions and look forward to them.

 

[recoveryjones]

I'm not sure I understand even this much of what you are saying. You seem to be saying that

1. you set up a long shot, which if the object ball went along the straight line joining the center of the cue ball and the object ball it would hit a distance of a ball and a half from the pocket (not touching the jaws at all) and

2. you shoot full at the the ball without side spin, striking it full and

3. you verify that the cue ball has struck the object ball full by the fact that it has no sideways motion and

4. you sometimes make the shot.

If that's all true, I simply don't believe you. Which part am I missing?

I'm betting that if you set up the shot described above and make it, the cue ball will move to the usual side for a cut in that direction, and that means that you didn't hit the ball full. Your mind may be thinking "full" but your arm knows what to do to make the ball.

Hi Bob, Sorry about the confusion.

What I'm trying to say is that I can line up a dead on straight in shot and execute a good stop shot almost all the time without any problem. Although my stroke is not professional, I have been told (by many) that I have decent mechanics.

And now onto the Bert kinister shots(examples) that I had earlier illustrated on the Wei table.To make sure I haven't been going completley out of my mind, I just finished re-watching the Kinister video("The Secrets of Making Long Hard Shots" Vol #55) in its entirity a few minutes ago.

In this video Bert lines up the (offline) shots and tells the student(BCA Instructor Mark Finklestein) to aim dead on instead of try to cut the ball. Common logic will tell us that a dead on hit will result in a missed shot because the shots I've illustrated draw a straight line to miss the pot a few inches to the right of the pocket. Finklestein aims dead on and the shot goes in.

Bert even goes onto move the ball as much as 3-4" offline and once again tells Finklestein to aim dead on, he does and makes the pots.The reason I only illustrated mild (1-2 inch offline) shots is because I didn't want everyone to think I'm totally off my rocker Bert attributes this different aiming approch to(aiming) optical illusions that present themselves in certain shots.

What you stated in your post holds true.You cannot aim an offline shot dead on (no side spin) and make the cut with out using english. Impossible, I agree 100%.
Every shot that Finklestein (aimed dead on)made was cut in, because the cue ball went off to the side. The point is,is that Finklestein AIMED dead on, however, obviously must have cut the ball a tad.

This is the teaching of a BCA Master (Bert) and Certified (Mark F) and not Recovery Jones, so I want to make that perfectly clear.

In Summary:

I don't know why this unconventional aiming methods works, however, all I know is that for me it works.It also works equally as well for me on right handed cuts and left handed cuts(Of the wei illustrated shots #1 and 2), so it's not that I have a glaring stroke flaw that is producing deflection/throw with some unwanted english. It just works period!

All I can suggest is purchasing his video and checking out this stuff for yourself.Or ask Bert(or Mark) about it personally as they are both BCA instructors like yourself.

If you don't want to do any of the above, please be at least open-minded enough to set up the illustrated Wei table shots and try them for yourself.
You will find out pretty quickly if Mr Kinister is full of doo-doo or not or at least if this aiming approach works for you or not.What have you (or anyone) got to lose.

I really believe that everyone has certain shots that they miss more than others because of optical illusions.In their mind, they think they are missing when in fact in a lot of cases they are hitting the object ball exactly where they are aiming and putting on a good stroke.See Joe Tuckers website(or DVD) and he explains that he aims to miss certain jack up shots in order to make them.He uses his third eye stroke trainer to show that there are optical illusions in pool.

http://www.joetucker.net/start.html

Sometimes unconviential/controversial teachers like Bert kinister and Hal Houle can be ignored by close minded people.Quite often some teachings defy mathematical/physics/geometry and logic, however, they still seem to work despite it.If you are making the shots despite logic,(and picking up some$$$) why worry about logic?

All I'm trying to do is to put in a plug for some of Kinisters great stuff and help some people perhaps make some shots that they've been missing.My intentions are good If it works for some...great...use it...if it doesn't...drop it...what have you got to lose?

RJ

Ps. Don't forget (everyone) to at least set up and try the shots (1+2) as illustrated in post #24 of this thread.You may be pleasantly surprised.Especially try shot #2.

 

[Jal]

...ps. When RJ gets on that certain money ball, he wants to find out the easiest way to cinch it and bring home the cash

Well, I wouldn't consider myself qualified to give advice, but when I really need to make it and position is of no concern (or can be obtained with speed control), and there's no real danger of scratching, I just roll the cueball.
I do this because throw is then very small, and although it can be reduced even more with some outside english, or perhaps inside, why mess with squirt and swerve. Here are some figures for throw (theoretical) for stun and with the cueball spinning at about half natural roll and then at full roll. The same applies if it has an equal amount of backspin, which Bob Jewett demonstrated for his latest article.

The second column is from Dr. Dave Alciatore's formulas, and the third is from mine. The cueball's speed is just around lag tempo. One degree of throw corresponds to very nearly one inch of sideways travel over the distance of the length of a cue stick.

Stun:

_____v = 5.000 mph = 2.235 m/sec
____rwz/v = 0.000___ rwx/v = 0.000

_______ Cut_____Throw_____Throw
______ Angle___ (u const)___ (u var)

_______ 0.00______0.00______0.00
_______ 5.00______0.72______0.72
_______10.00______1.44______1.44
_______15.00______2.19______2.19
_______20.00______2.98______2.98
_______25.00______2.78______3.54
_______30.00______2.40______2.59
_______35.00______2.10______2.05
_______40.00______1.86______1.70
_______45.00______1.68______1.46
_______50.00______1.53______1.29
_______55.00______1.41______1.17
_______60.00______1.32______1.08
_______65.00______1.25______1.01
_______70.00______1.20______0.96
_______75.00______1.16______0.93
_______80.00______1.13______0.90
_______85.00______1.12______0.89
_______90.00______1.11______0.57

Half-Roll:

_____ v = 5.000 mph = 2.235 m/sec
_____ rwz/v = 0.000__ rwx/v = 0.500

_______ Cut_____Throw_____Throw
______ Angle___ (u const)___ (u var)

_______ 0.00______0.00______0.00
_______ 5.00______0.41______0.47
_______10.00______0.77______0.85
_______15.00______1.04______1.10
_______20.00______1.22______1.23
_______25.00______1.32______1.27
_______30.00______1.37______1.26
_______35.00______1.37______1.22
_______40.00______1.35______1.16
_______45.00______1.32______1.11
_______50.00______1.28______1.06
_______55.00______1.24______1.02
_______60.00______1.21______0.98
_______65.00______1.18______0.95
_______70.00______1.16______0.93
_______75.00______1.14______0.91
_______80.00______1.12______0.89
_______85.00______1.12______0.88
_______90.00______1.11______0.57

Full Roll:

_____v = 5.000 mph = 2.235 m/sec
_____rwz/v = 0.000___rwx/v = 1.000

_______ Cut_____Throw_____Throw
______ Angle___ (u const)___ (u var)

_______0.00______0.00______0.00
_______ 5.00______0.10______0.08
_______10.00______0.19______0.16
_______15.00______0.29______0.24
_______20.00______0.38______0.32
_______25.00______0.47______0.39
_______30.00______0.56______0.46
_______35.00______0.64______0.53
_______40.00______0.72______0.59
_______45.00______0.79______0.65
_______50.00______0.85______0.70
_______55.00______0.91______0.74
_______60.00______0.96______0.78
_______65.00______1.01______0.82
_______70.00______1.05______0.84
_______75.00______1.08______0.86
_______80.00______1.10______0.87
_______85.00______1.11______0.88
_______90.00______1.11______0.57

As you can see, the biggest differences between stun vs draw/follow are at the moderate cut angles (0 - 40 degrees), where we like to shoot em. At very severe cut angles, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Why is less throw desirable? I don't know, maybe it isn't but it seems to work better for me on those long ones.

Jim