Making frozen rail cut shot

[Patrick Johnson]

…english has spin that throws the OB

Dr. Dave's article is here: https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf

It's all about the rubbing speed of the two surfaces - optimal rubbing speed for maximum friction/throw is produced with (stun and) half of maximum sidespin for a full hit, no sidespin for a half ball (30°) hit, and an evenly changing amount of inside spin in between. That rubbing speed can also be produced by adding an evenly increasing amount of outside spin as cuts get thinner than half ball.

Think of your tip moving across the CB's equator from half maximum inside to half maximum outside, changing evenly as the cut angle changes from full (1/2 max inside) to half ball (no spin) to thin (half max outside).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not to make the a Zhitshow...this is what I suspect happens to the CTE disciples. Their brain overrides the error and corrects. IE confirmation bias.

I think one of the unsung benefits of aiming systems is that they can increase confidence by reducing the subconscious/intuitive part of aiming. Some have even claimed that their favorite system needs no subconscious/intuitive help (which, ironically, helps them "get out of the way" so their subconscious/intuition can help).

pj
chgo

 

[sammylane12]

As plenty of people have said already, it is just a simple matter of deflection. If I am going to load up with power inside than I must aim at the center of the object ball, more or less. If I am using soft inside then not so much of an adjustment. But I use a solid maple shaft that is definitely not low deflection.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

So I saw this video on YouTube and thought it was an interesting take on frozen rail shots. The guys says it was taught to him by Earl Strickland. Basically, he says that with a ball frozen to the rail, you can make it by hitting the object ball full in the face and loading up with lots of high, inside english. I haven’t had a chance to try it yet. Anyone had a take on it?

I’ve always played to hit the rail and object ball simultaneously with a little left on the cue ball. Just about all of my pool is self taught through trial and error. In the early 60’s there was no instruction and great players shared nothing.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I don't really know how I aim anymore but can say that these shots can look damn near identical for a range of angles to me too. This tip of using same aim point for a variety of angles reminds me of what Steve Davis said about kicking during the 2002 World Championship Earl won (which I've watched several times as that final may be my fav match ever). He talked about not getting too precise with applying systems to hit parts of balls when they are not near a cushion and just aim up to hit the ball and let the subconscious mind make any little tweaks to pull off the intended shot. That's almost certainly what is happening here with this 'system'...you have the same(ish) look and the subconscious mind executes the intended shot by producing tiny little differences between the diff angled shots which the shooter is unaware of.

 

[Luxury]

Since we are talking about inside english here, I looked something up in one of Dr. Dave's articles that I didn't understand, and I found a surprising fact about inside english (and now I remember it being mentioned in one of his throw videos). Some preliminaries: inside english has spin that throws the OB in the same direction as the cut induced throw. If you think about the first shot in the video where the ball is on the left hand long rail, the inside english will throw the OB into the rail, which is also what the cut induced throw is trying to do. Compare that to outside english, where the spin throws the OB in the opposite direction of the cut induced throw, which is why if you hit the CB with just the right amount of outside english, i.e. "gearing" english, you can get exactly zero throw on the OB.

Yet, at larger cut angles, e.g. 60 degrees, inside english will actually cause less throw than no english. What??! That is counter to what you would expect: you would expect there to be some amount of cut induced throw and some additional throw from the inside english--but there is no additional throw from the inside english, and you don't even get the full amount of cut induced throw. Why is that? My mental model has adopted this explanation: I imagine that the inside english causes the two balls to skid against each other with less friction than when there is no spin, the result being less cut induced throw. In other words, at larger cut angles a CB with inside english can't grip the OB as easily, so the cut induced throw is less.

Now think about this effect: for large cut angles, a small amount of outside English can result in more throw than shots with no English. What??! Normally, outside english counter-acts cut induced throw! Apparently, everything works backwards for spin induced throw at large cut angles: inside english reduces the overall amount of throw and outside english increases the overall amount of throw.

Dr. Dave's article is here: https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf

Wow what a nice gem to find in this thread. Just based on my 30 years of playing with tons of inside I can say this all sounds about like what I’ve experienced. Thanks for summing up Dave’s article I don’t know that I ever would’ve read that entire thing

 

[7stud]

It's all about the rubbing speed of the two surfaces - optimal rubbing speed for maximum friction/throw is produced with (stun and) half of maximum sidespin for a full hit, no sidespin for a half ball (30°) hit, and an evenly changing amount of inside spin in between. That rubbing speed can also be produced by adding an evenly increasing amount of outside spin as cuts get thinner than half ball.

Think of your tip moving across the CB's equator from half maximum inside to half maximum outside, changing evenly as the cut angle changes from full (1/2 max inside) to half ball (no spin) to thin (half max outside).

pj
chgo

Is this what you mean?

It's all about the rubbing speed of the two surfaces - optimal rubbing speed for maximum throw is produced with (stun and) half of maximum english for a full hit and no english for a half ball (30°) hit, with an evenly changing amount of inside english in between a full hit and a half ball hit. As the cut gets thinner than a half ball hit, you need to use an evenly increasing amount of outside spin to produce the optimal rubbing for maximum friction/throw.

Think of your tip moving across the CB's equator from half maximum inside to half maximum outside, changing evenly as the cut angle changes from full (1/2 max inside) to half ball (no spin) to thin (half max outside).

If so, I understand what you are saying--but it's still confounding that beyond a 1/2 ball hit, the rules for spin induced throw flip. Cuts thinner than a 1/2 ball hit require you to use outside english to INCREASE the throw rather than inside english. Strange stuff. Thanks for the "tip moving across the CB's equator" rule.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...it's still confounding that beyond a 1/2 ball hit, the rules for spin induced throw flip.

As the cut angle increases the spin needed changes smoothly from inside to none to outside in order to maintain the same optimal rubbing speed. More of a progression than a "flip".

pj
chgo

 

[jtompilot]

Inside spin hitting a ball frozen to the cushion nose, must strike the obj. ball first before hitting the rail.
Inside cueing, applies the opposite rotation to the obj. ball when contacted first.

Because of this, when the obj. ball hits the pocket facing, the induced spin on the obj. ball causes that object ball to rotate inward.
Spin induces speed to the obj. ball thus requiring the shooter to hit the obj. ball slightly fuller as more spin is induced.
Also, adding more cue ball forward speed will increase the thickness of the obj. ball contact point needed to be struck.

The cleaner the ball set, and the newer the cloth the thicker this shot must be hit as more spin/speed is added to Whitey.
Reason is, clean play conditions, with new or freshly cleaned balls cause more object ball squirt.
If the cloth is freshly cleaned or new, conditions change as the day and days go by.
As new cloth wears and ESPECIALLY when more humidity/dirt comes into the play area, the obj. ball contact point changes dramatically.

Hitting the ball first or rail first changes whether the cue ball goes three rails or straight across. I'd like to see a Dr. Dave video on that inside english with the object frozen would apply any english to it. The spin transfer would have to overcome the rail cloth friction for that to happen.

 

[jtompilot]

Try this one.

On a Valley bar box I watched a guy make that shot from the opposite corner three times in a row. So what's that, 120 degrees?

 

[Island Drive]

Hitting the ball first or rail first changes whether the cue ball goes three rails or straight across. I'd like to see a Dr. Dave video on that inside english with the object frozen would apply any english to it. The spin transfer would have to overcome the rail cloth friction for that to happen.

With Out a Doubt...
Hitting rail first makes it a carom, because nose compression allows weight of cue ball to hit behind the obj. ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

On a Valley bar box I watched a guy make that shot from the opposite corner three times in a row. So what's that, 120 degrees?

He could have gotten my lunch money but not my rent money.

Did he elevate? That Valley must have had some interesting cushions.

As it turns out, it's only about 105 degrees. Here's the diagram on a 9-foot table. The hardest prop position for this shot I've heard of was on the first diamond, and it was shot as a masse with a number of tries (Harder). It was the only shot the guy shot and he would only try for major money. Or so the story went.

 

[Island Drive]

After listening to the first few minutes, here's how I explained to my students what was occurring.
Picture this, two people on a beach and you've got a large inflatable beach ball, there's no wind.
Your a short distance away from one another.
You punch the ball in the middle it goes straight to the other person.
Next punch the beach ball about 6'' to the right middle.
The beach ball goes toward the other person, yet goes slightly left, and it arrives slightly right to the other person.
As you punch the same spot even harder (on the right side of the ball) it goes more left.
Cue ball does the exact same thing.
If the same off-center spot is hit really hard, the ball goes even more left when hit on the right side and vice versa when hit on the left side.
It's physics it has to.
The cue ball is squirting/caroming/moving forward left or right when hit off center.
If the cloth is brand new and conditions are dry, this forward off center hit direction change increases.
So, when a top players game ''drops in'', meaning when he's in the zone/dead stroke, it's this feel that he gets when total control of the cue ball takes over with cue ball squirt and cue ball speed, they happen simultaneously.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... If the same off-center spot is hit really hard, the ball goes even more left when hit on the right side and vice versa when hit on the left side.
It's physics it has to.
...

Actually, both physics and testing say that the speed of the shot has very little effect on the amount of squirt. The testing has to be done carefully because swerve -- which happens on all normal sidespin shots -- can make it appear that soft shots have less squirt.

 

[Island Drive]

Well Bob, my walk up is always compensating differently. As I increase my cue ball speed with outside cueing, more so with horizontal cueing.
I'm squirting (out to in) with the cue ball to my desired obj. ball contact point thru feel and muscle memory adjusting to the table.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Actually, both physics and testing say that the speed of the shot has very little effect on the amount of squirt. The testing has to be done carefully because swerve -- which happens on all normal sidespin shots -- can make it appear that soft shots have less squirt.

You can think of the CB's path with sidespin as always being a shallow curve, more or less sharply curved (depending on shot speed) and more or less of it traversed by the CB (depending on shot length). If the shot is fast enough and/or short enough, swerve can be undetectable, but I imagine it's always theoretically present (since there's always some cue elevation).

pj
chgo

 

[Island Drive]

When you do a punch shot with a horizontal inside cueing there is an inside out cue ball movement, with no curve unless it slows down before contact.... if that begins to happen, that's Whitey unwinding its outside cue induced spin, and changing direction left or right, before it begins to roll naturally.
It's why pros, like Shaw, Filler punch most every shot they shoot along the horizontal/vertical plane, it eliminates contact/collision variables due to unwinding.
Once you cue above horizontal with non-center cueing.... swerve Then comes into play quickly, and it's More difficult to punch a cue ball without direction change with when you hit whitey anywhere in between horizontal or vertical. Meaning 1 o'clock 2 o'clock 4 o'clock 5 o'clock 7 o'clock and 8 and 10 and 11, or anywhere in between.
For those that are not clear what the clock talk means.
Center high is 12, center low 6 o'clock (draw) horizontal right and left are 3 and 9pm.