manipulating the system = sandbagging

L

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i have been playing in a in house money league using the bcapl format for about 3 months now. in these 3 months i have seen more evidence of sandbagging than in the 2 1/2 years i have been playing apa. it is starting to piss me off.

the apa is not perfect but at least they try to cut down the sandbagging by keeping up with innings and safties. any league that keeps up with nothing but points scored is easy to manipulate.

let me give you an example.

a guy faces 3 pretty tough opponents so he breaks and runs on them. his team is up 30 -0 based on his points. his next 2 opponents are low level so he fools around and lets them both win but he made 5 points each game. his total is 40 points and his opponents total is 20.

this is exactly what happened the other night. 3 guys had break and runs against me. all 3 let my gf win against them but 2 of them scored 5 points and 1 scored 6 points against her. i am an apa 6 and they were not about to let me at the table, she is a 3 who can barely run 2 in a row starting with bih.

i have seen this happen too many times in the last 3 months.
 
The in-house league that is run at the Eagles Club that I'm a member of has a similar set of circumstances. They use wins and innings, but no safeties are accounted for, and the better players will miss on purpose against the weaker players to pad the inning count, and thus keep their handicap lower.

And yes, many of these players are the same guys that pi$$ and moan about what "bad pool" the apa is.

I laugh every time that ask me to join that league. (I don't have to worry about it regardless, as I work every Saturday, so I can't play in that league anyway.) I look at the player handicaps on the wall and laugh some more.
 
lorider said:
i have been playing in a in house money league using the bcapl format for about 3 months now. in these 3 months i have seen more evidence of sandbagging than in the 2 1/2 years i have been playing apa. it is starting to piss me off.
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lorider,

I have played in four different scenarios concerning pool leagues:

APA, with no real evidence of sandbagging, with average sportsmanship.
APA, with a ridiculous amount of sandbagging and bad sportsmanship.
BCAPL, with literally no sandbagging or bad sportsmanship.
BCAPL, with anything bad associated with a pool league could offer happened in this league.

Anytime there is a ranking/skill level system, it can be manipulated. Some are harder than others. The two you mentioned in your OP are two of the easiest to manipulate. The best way to manage league players skill levels is for the League Operator/League Director to PERSONALLY know his members and their games. Problem in most leagues is turnover keeps new, unknown players coming in. It is a problem (sandbagging) that is never going to go away as long as there is pride or a prize at the end of the rainbow. You have to just learn to fade it and try to get as much enjoyment out of it as you can.

Monday night, my wife (a SL4 that shoots like a SL3 on most nights) got beat in APA 9-ball by a score of 19-1 by a guy that was ranked a SL5 but shot like a strong SL7. Needless to say, my wife (who won between 50-60% of her matches as a SL3), got NO enjoyment from that match. If one of the LO's would have seen that guy shooting that match, they probably would move him up next week (if St. Louis doesn't already do it). So, we feel your pain, bro'!!!

Maniac
 
I played in an in-house league for a while. One night I defeated the captain of another team and he asked me if I wanted to join his APA team as the "hidden player". I didn't want to join, hidden or not, but the thought of taking one night a week to deliberately play lousy pool seems like a complete waste of time.
 
alstl said:
I played in an in-house league for a while. One night I defeated the captain of another team and he asked me if I wanted to join his APA team as the "hidden player". I didn't want to join, hidden or not, but the thought of taking one night a week to deliberately play lousy pool seems like a complete waste of time.
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Oh, I dunno...
Being able to lay down and tank properly is a real talent and must be properly developed and nurtured to be effective, otherwise you are just a sandbagger. It's always something when you graduate from sandbagger to hustler, or more accurately - from APA to BCA
 
Nah, I could just see it heading in that direction so I thought I'd push it along. I'm kinda bored here at work so I want to see if I could get a rise out of anyone. I thought I need to mention both to offend the maximum number of people. ho hummm....
 
lorider said:
i have been playing in a in house money league using the bcapl format for about 3 months now. in these 3 months i have seen more evidence of sandbagging than in the 2 1/2 years i have been playing apa. it is starting to piss me off.

the apa is not perfect but at least they try to cut down the sandbagging by keeping up with innings and safties. any league that keeps up with nothing but points scored is easy to manipulate.

let me give you an example.

a guy faces 3 pretty tough opponents so he breaks and runs on them. his team is up 30 -0 based on his points. his next 2 opponents are low level so he fools around and lets them both win but he made 5 points each game. his total is 40 points and his opponents total is 20.

this is exactly what happened the other night. 3 guys had break and runs against me. all 3 let my gf win against them but 2 of them scored 5 points and 1 scored 6 points against her. i am an apa 6 and they were not about to let me at the table, she is a 3 who can barely run 2 in a row starting with bih.

i have seen this happen too many times in the last 3 months.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the real world of anything with a handicap that is played for money...happens all the time in pool, golf, bowling....nothing new.
 
I have played APA, BCA, local cash leagues, weekly handicap tournaments and to be honest I dont see as much sandbagging as people make it seem. Dont take it wrong, there is sandbagging in almost any handicap format but just not as much, someone plays good one or a couple of nights and that person is automatically labeled as a sandbagger, gee a few weeks ago a new apa player that moved into this place I played on accused me of sandbagging, kinda tough for me to sandbag with im a SL7 in 8ball and SL9 in 9ball right? lol. There are also a lot of other factors that people dont take into consideration when they believe someone is sandibagging. A LOT of league players just go mainly for fun, so they dont try as hard to win unless they get the pressure of playoffs or cities, by the time the pressure is on for them they actually play better than their handicap. Another scenario that I see all the time is that it seems that all SL3-5 seem to play a whole lot better than their handicap when they play me, but thinking about it doesnt mean that they are sandbagging they are just trying a whole lot harder to win, I remember when I was a SL4-5 and I had to play a SL7 or SL8 in my mind these people could run out all the time so if I wanted to win I had to play my best therefore the pressure brought the best of my game at the time, same when I play lower skill handicaps I still wanna win but in the back of my mind I know I dont have to play perfect to win. Not counting how much people drink during league but then comes playoffs or cities and they all sober and playing their game.

Having said that, there are still many issues with these leagues that allow sandbagging, I have only seen one inhouse cash league that their handicap system has very well designed and left little error for sandbagging; the only problem, taking score was a chore no one wanted to do because there were so many things to take into consideration.
At the end of the day we all gonna have problems when it comes to handicap leagues and tournaments, every one is gonna complain. I have come to terms to that fact and the way I approach is that I want to work so hard on my game and become good to the point that at the end of the day the handicap is not gonna matter and Ill win most of the time regardless.
 
BCAPL at fault?

justadub said:
The in-house league that is run at the Eagles Club that I'm a member of has a similar set of circumstances. They use wins and innings, but no safeties are accounted for, and the better players will miss on purpose against the weaker players to pad the inning count, and thus keep their handicap lower.

And yes, many of these players are the same guys that pi$$ and moan about what "bad pool" the apa is.

I laugh every time that ask me to join that league. (I don't have to worry about it regardless, as I work every Saturday, so I can't play in that league anyway.) I look at the player handicaps on the wall and laugh some more.
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The BCAPL does not have an official handicap or scoring system. They recommend theirs, but allow local directors lots of latitude. So the problem may be in your league bylaws and not with the BCAPL.

Having played some 80 seasons in more than a dozen different leagues, my personal experience is that there's little or no sand-bagging in properly run leagues. I wish there were a BCAPL, VNEA or ACS league in my area, but there isn't.

During my seven seasons in APA, I found sand-bagging to be very common....some would say the key to success.
 
I don't play in leagues, and don't play the hustle too much ;) but I do bag it quite often for my buddies to make them feel good.
 
There is one truth that always gets overlooked when people claim sandbagging. Anytime you play a better player your game is elevated. Anytime you play a player who is way below your level your game is usually lowered.
I find this constantly that I play fantastic when I know that I may not get another shot and sometimes I get lazy when I know I'm getting another shot at the table.

Don't pick on Dub.....
 
DoubleD said:
Damn these get tiring.
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I must spread around the reputation before I can give you anymore. I about spit my coffee on my keyboard! LOL!


It's league play man. The only reason I play league is to qualify for state tournaments. I literally couldn't care less if I win or lose.

If your at league to compete you're there for the wrong reason. It's suppose to be fun. Don't let some ass whole piss in your cherrio's. Just have fun and you win either way!

best,

Justin
 
stop playing in handi capped leagues and tournaments. any time you give someone a chance to manipulate a hadicap they will. Im going to date myself a little bit but when i started playing pool there were no handicap tournaments at least where i lived. you played everyone even and after you got your teeth kicked in enough you put the time in to practice and get better so you could compete. with handicaps your allowing people with no or little skill too win in turn what is going to drive that person to get any better.
just my opinon
 
rozz1968 said:
stop playing in handi capped leagues and tournaments. any time you give someone a chance to manipulate a hadicap they will. Im going to date myself a little bit but when i started playing pool there were no handicap tournaments at least where i lived. you played everyone even and after you got your teeth kicked in enough you put the time in to practice and get better so you could compete. with handicaps your allowing people with no or little skill too win in turn what is going to drive that person to get any better.
just my opinon
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This is true. However without leagues and handicap leagues and tournaments this game would be almost dead by now.
 
leehayes said:
There is one truth that always gets overlooked when people claim sandbagging. Anytime you play a better player your game is elevated. Anytime you play a player who is way below your level your game is usually lowered.
I find this constantly that I play fantastic when I know that I may not get another shot and sometimes I get lazy when I know I'm getting another shot at the table.

Don't pick on Dub.....
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This is right on the nose. :smile:
 
I played league for years: bca, apa and tap (the last in two different states).

Every single one of them had sandbagging. Some worse than others. The ones with the lesser amount were in house leagues with a motivated LO who was there every week and watching matches. The ones that were the worse were ones run by money grubbing LO's who hardly showed up and couldn't care less about the pool....they just wanted their money. Sadly the latter is much more common than the former.

It's going to happen everywhere. It's part of league play.



Oh one more thing: scoring systems mean zilch when it comes to sandbagging. If safeties affect your handicap people will just shoot two way shots and never call a safety ever. Etc.



Edit: Oshua86 is also right about motivation. Some people just like to get out of the house and couldn't care less about winning or losing a meaningless league match. They take shots they shouldn't and are relaxing and having fun not seriously playing. But if you piss them off or otherwise give them motivation... ;)
 
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Spider1 said:
I played league for years: bca, apa and tap (the last in two different states).

Every single one of them had sandbagging. Some worse than others. The ones with the lesser amount were in house leagues with a motivated LO who was there every week and watching matches. The ones that were the worse were ones run by money grubbing LO's who hardly showed up and couldn't care less about the pool....they just wanted their money. Sadly the latter is much more common than the former.

It's going to happen everywhere. It's part of league play.



Oh one more thing: scoring systems mean zilch when it comes to sandbagging. If safeties affect your handicap people will just shoot two way shots and never call a safety ever. Etc.
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If you are a good score keeper and you know pool you would mark those two way shots as defensive shots, I dont care if the person calls it or not I know when a defensive shot or a 2 way shot is being played, as per most leagues handbook if you are not playing straight offense you are playing defense therefore it should be marked. A lot of times scorekeepers dont know that they can mark defensive shots at their discretion, and defensive shots dont have to match both teams scoresheet either.
 
rozz1968 said:
stop playing in handi capped leagues and tournaments. any time you give someone a chance to manipulate a hadicap they will. Im going to date myself a little bit but when i started playing pool there were no handicap tournaments at least where i lived. you played everyone even and after you got your teeth kicked in enough you put the time in to practice and get better so you could compete. with handicaps your allowing people with no or little skill too win in turn what is going to drive that person to get any better.
just my opinon
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This is the only answer the thread needs. Don't play in handicapped leagues. Get better, get more personal satisfaction out of the game, and have more fun knowing that nobody has an unfair advantage.
 
rozz1968 said:
stop playing in handi capped leagues and tournaments. any time you give someone a chance to manipulate a hadicap they will. Im going to date myself a little bit but when i started playing pool there were no handicap tournaments at least where i lived. you played everyone even and after you got your teeth kicked in enough you put the time in to practice and get better so you could compete. with handicaps your allowing people with no or little skill too win in turn what is going to drive that person to get any better.
just my opinon
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This is EXACTLY what made me better

leehayes said:
There is one truth that always gets overlooked when people claim sandbagging. Anytime you play a better player your game is elevated. Anytime you play a player who is way below your level your game is usually lowered.
I find this constantly that I play fantastic when I know that I may not get another shot and sometimes I get lazy when I know I'm getting another shot at the table.
Click to expand...
When I did play leagues (unhandicapped) there was an '80 yr lady that kicked my a** everytime we played. She is terrible, but could unintensionally leave me w/ the worst shots ever. I've played the best around here and smoked them all, but I'll be damned if I could beat her. My game fell off the second she came through the door w/ her walker.
 
oshua86 said:
If you are a good score keeper and you know pool you would mark those two way shots as defensive shots, I dont care if the person calls it or not I know when a defensive shot or a 2 way shot is being played, as per most leagues handbook if you are not playing straight offense you are playing defense therefore it should be marked. A lot of times scorekeepers dont know that they can mark defensive shots at their discretion, and defensive shots dont have to match both teams scoresheet either.
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Good luck with that. Hope you enjoy Endless arguments.

Good players can shoot two ways all day that 95% of league hackers will never recognize. For instance: if I rattle a ball and leave you with a wide open shot on your ball(s), but frozen to an end rail, good luck calling that a defensive shot. People do this stuff all the time. Unless you are going to mark every bad leave as a "defense", in which case...enjoy the endless arguments. ;)
 
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