manipulating the system = sandbagging

I personally prefer to play someone straight up, as in no handicap. That even goes for action matches. Of course, that's probably why I don't gamble much. It's just my nature. I don't want to feel like someone is doing me a favor, just so that it comes down to hill-hill every match. I mean, that's what's supposed to happen, right? If the handicap is spot on, every match would go to the wire with someone winning that final game to put them over the top. We all know that's a fantasy. I suppose it's a necessary evil in today's pool world.

With that said, the only league we have in my area is the APPA (Arkansas Pool Player's Association). We're handicapped and we go by BCA rules almost to the letter.

As for the handicap format, players are rated from 3-10. We have very few 3's, as those people should be just complete beginners, who probably don't know some of the rules by heart, zero strategy employed, except putting the ball in the pocket.....well, you get the idea. In fact, here is what our manual says:

Rank: Expected Ability of Player

10: Plays all phases of the game well. Run-out threat at all times, breaks and runs-out 25% of the time.

9: Plays all phases of the game well. Run-out threat at all times, breaks and runs-out 20% of the time.

8: Plays all phases of the game well with better than average ability. Run-out threat at all times. Breaks and runs-out 15% of the time.

7: Above average player consistently runs 5 to 7 balls. Breaks and runs-out 10% of the time.

6: Above average knowledge and ability consistently runs 4 to 6 balls. Ability to break and run-out occasionally (less than 10% of the time) plays 2 of 3 phases of the game well.

5: Average knowledge of the game consistent 2 to 5 ball run. Seldom breaks and runs-out.

4: Basic knowledge of the game. Consistent 1 to 3 ball run with occasional 4 ball run. Never breaks and runs-out. Knowledge of the game, but lacks necessary skills to execute proficiently.

3: Beginner player with little or no knowledge of the game. 1 to 2 ball run with occasional 3. Never breaks and runs-out.

* Knowledge of the game consists of ability to play position, safeties, and pocket balls.

** Three phases consist of position play, safety, and pocketing balls.

NOW, those are the BASELINES that we use to rate someone. If you walked in and no one knew you at all, you're supposed to start as a 7. If you're a very strong player, sure you could steal that first tourney, but the pay-outs are generally low, so that's never an issue. You'd be a known quantity at that point, so good luck at that second tourney.

Immediately upon joining, if a board member/tourney director/experienced player has an opportunity to hit balls with you before a tourney starts, they'll assign you a rating. Now, if you're a known player with a known skill level from the area, then a board member/established player/tournament director assigns a rating and that's that.

From then on, you're monitored by everyone around you. If you start cashing or beating better players, people are going to start saying that it's time to move up. In this area, yea, I see the occasional, "hey, that guy is underrated!" whining thing, but for the most part it's really not that bad, and it's easy to fend off when you tell them that the player has never cashed in an event or maybe only once all year, etc. Sometimes a player shoots out of his head. And sometimes you're the bug to his windshield.

I'm on the APPA board and I regularly take a look at who's cashing and who's not. Cause if they ain't cashin', why the heck would they be sandbaggin', right? The main intent on sandbagging is to lay low and steal something later. If you're not taking any money, then you're only hurting yourself by taking lumps when you shouldn't. Our biggest pay-off at the end of the year isn't much more than $500, so to get your brains beat in and lose your entry in a bunch of tournaments throughout the year, waste fuel, food, etc......you'd be a fool to lay low for that one score. You'd never come out ahead.

Anyway, it's just something that the more experienced players and board members take care of. If your level of play increases and you're benefitting from it, as in cashing in events, you're gonna go up.

And for what it's worth, I've only been in the league for 2 years and I've never seen anyone go down a skill level. It's not very "fluid". You're going to have to show a body of work that proves you're a better player than your rating. Just about the only time where you might move up all at once is if you win the state tournament or a kick-off tourney. Those generally get you a "automatic" level raise, and even then, it's not set in stone. Just more of a tradition.

We do have a rule that if a level 3 player EVER cashes, they're automatically moved up immediately after the tourney. No ifs, ands or but.

I guess my point is.......with all the fancy, electronic, proprietary formulas used by these nation-wide leagues......our leagues uses our eyes. We watch you play. We watch you cash. We move you up. 'Nuff said.
 
Look at it this way. Sandbagging or not, if you put up big fat goose eggs, you will NOT make it to playoffs, regionals, finals, vegas, whatever. I never heard of a team that's behind 30 points, with 2 low level players left, and they go all the way thanks to fair handicapping.

If someone wants to gift my team a few 'pity points', then god bless 'em, because if they play their best game without screwing around, your team is CLEARLY going nowhere.

Sure, if they play square they might have to give up a larger spot to someone else down the road. But that 'someone else' won't be your team no matter how much you complain. The system's inherently broken... a race to 1 in a game that C-players can run out? You gotta find a fairer system, no handicap can fix that.
 
Welcome to AZB. You'll find that most of Lorider's threads are about how often he gets screwed because of a handicapping system.

You'll also find that Justadub jumps in to tout the APA in any thread where it is borderline applicable.

dld

i keep stats on all of our matches, it helps when you are matching up.

although this money league is a round robin format and matching up against opponents does not come into play like apa i still keep stats. it helps determine who to choose for the extra break you get. i assume other bcapl formats are like this one where 2 people get 3 breaks, 2 get 2 breaks and the last one gets to flip for the break.

i have seen a pattern from the top 3 teams, several break and runs then loose a couple.

just like the other night. a s/l 8 made a b&R me , a b&r against our other 7 and a b&r against our 8. he then lost to my gf who is an apa 3 in 7 innings 9-6. then he lost to her 15 year old son who is no better than her in 8 innings 9-5. his score was 40, his opponents scored 18. 2 other 8's on that team did the exact same thing also . this has happened both times we faced them.

i dont have a problem with anyone putting a b&r on me, but dont go back to the table 20 minutes later and lose to a friggin 3 in 8 innings.

i think the thing that pissed me off the most was having to listen to my gf bragging she got more points than me. it did not matter to her that 3 guys put b&r's on me and then gave her 3 wins. when i said yea she won due to them sandbagging she said i was just pissed she scored more than me. i guess ignorance is bliss.
 
Nothing wrong with complaining about it. The use of handicaps can be very discouraging for some teams, the ones that play their hardest.

Our division is called the Trip League because we can win a trip to Vegas.
Every year, the one of the 2 last place teams will usually win a trip.

Hard to win a match when you go into it giving the other team 20+ handicap points. They will have 6s that suddenly become 8s and 7s that will become 8s or 9s when they need to.

There is absolutely no incentive to play your hardest and be at the top of the division.

Just a fact of life in our division and a lot of the teams are becoming disillusioned. They will eventually find somewhere else to play and the LO will wonder why he can't find teams to play in his league.

I will put our team into a cash division next year. That way you will be rewarded for being at the top. The higher you are, the more money you make and no handicaps in the year end tourneys.
 
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Oh, I dunno...
Being able to lay down and tank properly is a real talent and must be properly developed and nurtured to be effective, otherwise you are just a sandbagger. It's always something when you graduate from sandbagger to hustler, or more accurately - from APA to BCA

I've known a few hard core hustlers. They would fight each other for the opportunity to play the "hustlers" in the Tuesday night league regardless of the initials.
 
Welcome to AZB. You'll find that most of Lorider's threads are about how often he gets screwed because of a handicapping system.

You'll also find that Justadub jumps in to tout the APA in any thread where it is borderline applicable.

dld

without bothering to look up your posting history i seem to recall most of your posts as being insightful and you usually make valid points about your point of view. so i do not understand the negativity you are displaying here.

i have indeed made several posts about the validity of accurate scorekeeping ensures accurate handicap levels and i still stand by that opinion. i dont ever recall complaining about being screwed by handicaping systems though and apologize if my posts have come across that way. you may be right in this case though.

i play apa and napa leagues just to be playing pool and do not expect anything out of it but the enjoyment of playing . i play in this money league the same reason i assume all the other players do " MONEY ".

i pay mine an my gf's 6.00 fees a couple nights a week for apa with no expectations back. i pay my 6.00 napa fee with no expectation back. i pay 10..0each for me, my gf, and her son. thats 30.00 a night for this money league and yea i feel i am getting screwed when i see obvious signs of sandbagging.

this is not my 1st rodeo with this league. i played in it 6 years ago and never once thought any one was sandbagging. this time around i have seen obvious signs from 2 of the top 3 teams.

last week we lost 204 - 172 and it should have been a lot worse. tonight the shoe was on the other foot, we won 204- 146. i went undefeated and i or my other 2 higher level players never once thought about slacking off ensuring we stayed at our current handicap levels and still winning the match also such as what was done to us last week.

as for your comment about dub.

this forum is for anyone to come on and give their opinion about anything pool related. it is perfectly acceptable to voice your opinion about the league you play in. 99.9% of the time dub's viewpoints are positive and respectful towards other posters. so lay off my buddy.
 
I don't know if its been said already is the horrible part of leagues when the player pretends they were sandbagging to excuse their poor performance.
 
I don't know if its been said already is the horrible part of leagues when the player pretends they were sandbagging to excuse their poor performance.

oh man... you just made me spit my drink all over my keyboard. that is pretty funny. i gotta remember that the next time i have an off night.
 
I don't know if its been said already is the horrible part of leagues when the player pretends they were sandbagging to excuse their poor performance.

:rotflmao1:

Of course, I probably better not comment, cuz then I might shoehorn in some alphabet soup in my comment :p
 
You have to just learn to fade it and try to get as much enjoyment out of it as you can.

Wise words, indeed.

The other side of the coin is to 'play to win'. Notice how many teams in the NFL don't hold? None. They may exalt their virtues, but every single blocker is taught how to hold while minimizing how to get caught. That's playing to win, and to do anything but stretch the system is to be at a disadvantage.

I have come to terms to that fact and the way I approach is that I want to work so hard on my game and become good to the point that at the end of the day the handicap is not gonna matter and Ill win most of the time regardless.

More wise words. As much as it is difficult to properly handicap players, it is also very difficult to devise a system that doesn't at least slightly favor the better player.
 
Cheaters will cheat

For their own reasons some people will cheat. The check on them is someone who enforces the rules. My LO for APA doesn't. The real sandbaggers are known (some actually will tell you and yes they are serious) and with some genuine effort some or most could be discovered.

Perm ban them and move on.

Will you catch ALL of them? No, but is an absurd argument to say because you won't get 100% of them not to try.

If I had a LO who acted like she had some stones and threw the hammer down loudly and often I have a funny feeling it would stop.

But then she'd loose a few dollars.
 
There is one truth that always gets overlooked when people claim sandbagging. Anytime you play a better player your game is elevated. Anytime you play a player who is way below your level your game is usually lowered.
I find this constantly that I play fantastic when I know that I may not get another shot and sometimes I get lazy when I know I'm getting another shot at the table.

I agree with this as I myself play in a bca league and see it every week. I also find myself playing the person and not the game...by that I mean if I am playing someone who plays my speed I generally play full speed, but if I am playing a 7 or lower I back off just so it is fun for both of us. I play leagues to have fun not to make a living. Im not sandbagging, Im keeping it fun. I generally give them 2 shots at the table and if they win they win if they dont so be it.
 
It's all good here. We're all just trying to have some fun, most of the time.

And you're comments about me and APA comments aren't terribly far off. It's all we have here, save for the occasional small local tournament, and I don't gamble, so it's all I know, first hand. So often that's my perspective.

And I guess I do participate whenever the subject comes up. So guilty as charged.

:p
 
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