Mark Tadd

[jay helfert]

For what its worth, Parica told me that Buddy was supposed to play Efren again the next day and Efren never showed. Parica also said that the last year Buddy won the US Open ('98 I believe) Buddy offered to play Efren some even 9-ball for any amount if Efren would come to Florida where Buddy's stakehorse lived and Efren politely declined. Parica said when Buddy was playing good, no one could beat him in an ahead set. I also have an accu-stats video where Grady says that Buddy was the best money player ever and that in the 25 years he had known Buddy that no one beat Buddy playing for any serious amount of money. Grady said he knows from experiance because the story was true about him not missing a single ball while playing Buddy 3 or 4 races to 11 for money and Grady still lost.

Okay, I've read all these posts about the match between Efren and Buddy after the Red's tourney was over. So now you can have an up close, eye witness account from someone who was there the whole week. And I'm not W.W. Woody!

The first rendition of the "Caesar Morales" show was one of the most amazing episodes of pool playing I ever witnessed. He played in the tournament every day against the best players in the country, and his backers were giving up ridiculous spots, like four, five or six games on the wire, in a Race to Eleven. I was one of the "suckers" then too.

And Caesar (Efren) was beating everybody by scores like 11-3 and 11-4. And the filipino gangsters who brought him here were winning thousands betting on the side. At night after the tournament was over, Caesar was playing high stakes action against the top money players like Keith, Danny Medina and others. He was playing until the wee hours each night and winning still more big bucks for his backers.

This went on every day (and night) for five or six days, until mercifully the tournament ended with Caesar beating Wade Crane 11-9 in the finals. By the way, this is the only match where his opponent covered the line (they were giving three on the wire with few takers!). He had won over 20K in the tournament and maybe another 30 or 40K from all the other action. Caesar (Efren) had played virtually non stop for six days, not two. And beat everybody he played!

What I remember is that there was a lot of "heat" on this filipino contingent. This was happening in Texas after all. Some of the Texas high rollers were grumbling about this "wetback" getting out of town with all their money. And these were BAD men, capable of nearly anything. I have no doubt the filipinos were armed as well, but fortunately no one got shot or killed.

What happened instead is that Efren agreed to play Buddy for 10K (5 each) that same night after the tournament had ended. It's true it wasn't a long match. I doubt it lasted more than two hours. I think they played something like six ahead. I refereed the match and was asked to watch two or three shots. I watched the entire match. NEITHER player played particularly well!! They both missed balls and got out of line. It was no sterling performance by either side. When Buddy missed, Efren failed to get out.

It almost looked to me like Efren was "dumping" the match. He played nothing like the player who had dominated everyone for six days. I don't know what to attribute it to. He had shown me that he was indefatiguable, so I don't think being tired really explains it. I felt then, and still do now, that Efren and his backers, could feel all the heat they were getting and decided it may be best to dump off 5K and get out of town alive.

They agreed to come back and play again the next day, but probably hit the road that very night. After all the money they had won, 5K was a small price to pay. It was like paying the time after a big score.

So for what it's worth, that's what I saw that week in Houston.

 

[John Barton]

Leave it to Jay to BUST everyone's bubble!

Thanks Jay. Eyewitness accounts trump everything.

 

[huckster]

Not saying this didn't happen, But Dennis really was no match for a in stroke Tad. If this happened there had to be other things in play.

Dennis has a gear you wouldn't believe. I watched him play quite a few times and he may be one of the most underated players today

 

[Black-Balled]

Dennis could spot Efren the 3-out, and if Efren never gets to the table, Dennis wins. Everyone should keep in mind, that no matter who spots who, if only one person is playing, it doesn't matter who gave what to who. I've heard of Mark Tadd giving pros weight, and the same thing, they got to the table maybe twice. Doesn't mean much when both players are capable of running the whole set out.

AMEN, Brother!

And that, ladies and gentelmen, is what these top level players do for the cash. They give no air to their opponents (well, during the set anyway ).

 

[gulfportdoc]

So for what it's worth, that's what I saw that week in Houston.

Thanks for the recap, Jay. We can't beat the recollections of the referee himself! I think you must have been present for every major pool contest! How about sharing some impressions from some of those matches you sweated between Alfredo DeOro and Bennie Allen?...

Doc

 

[JoeyA]

Been there, watched that! - JAY HELFERT

Okay, I've read all these posts about the match between Efren and Buddy after the Red's tourney was over. So now you can have an up close, eye witness account from someone who was there the whole week. And I'm not W.W. Woody!

The first rendition of the "Caesar Morales" show was one of the most amazing episodes of pool playing I ever witnessed. He played in the tournament every day against the best players in the country, and his backers were giving up ridiculous spots, like four, five or six games on the wire, in a Race to Eleven. I was one of the "suckers" then too.

And Caesar (Efren) was beating everybody by scores like 11-3 and 11-4. And the filipino gangsters who brought him here were winning thousands betting on the side. At night after the tournament was over, Caesar was playing high stakes action against the top money players like Keith, Danny Medina and others. He was playing until the wee hours each night and winning still more big bucks for his backers.

This went on every day (and night) for five or six days, until mercifully the tournament ended with Caesar beating Wade Crane 11-9 in the finals. By the way, this is the only match where his opponent covered the line (they were giving three on the wire with few takers!). He had won over 20K in the tournament and maybe another 30 or 40K from all the other action. Caesar (Efren) had played virtually non stop for six days, not two. And beat everybody he played!

What I remember is that there was a lot of "heat" on this filipino contingent. This was happening in Texas after all. Some of the Texas high rollers were grumbling about this "wetback" getting out of town with all their money. And these were BAD men, capable of nearly anything. I have no doubt the filipinos were armed as well, but fortunately no one got shot or killed.

What happened instead is that Efren agreed to play Buddy for 10K (5 each) that same night after the tournament had ended. It's true it wasn't a long match. I doubt it lasted more than two hours. I think they played something like six ahead. I refereed the match and was asked to watch two or three shots. I watched the entire match. NEITHER player played particularly well!! They both missed balls and got out of line. It was no sterling performance by either side. When Buddy missed, Efren failed to get out.

It almost looked to me like Efren was "dumping" the match. He played nothing like the player who had dominated everyone for six days. I don't know what to attribute it to. He had shown me that he was indefatiguable, so I don't think being tired really explains it. I felt then, and still do now, that Efren and his backers, could feel all the heat they were getting and decided it may be best to dump off 5K and get out of town alive.

They agreed to come back and play again the next day, but probably hit the road that very night. After all the money they had won, 5K was a small price to pay. It was like paying the time after a big score.

So for what it's worth, that's what I saw that week in Houston.

NICE accounting Jay.
Do you remember if there was similar side betting on the 5K match?
Thanks!
JoeyA

 

[Bayawak]

Sigel was certainly tough back then, but reportedly the player Efren was most afraid of was Buddy Hall. Buddy was the only guy to beat him for the cheese at that premier tournament at Red's. He was asked for a comment about Buddy one time. Efren said, "Buddy, he never mees..."

Doc

Apparently, you've never heard of the law of averages, that after winning so many times, you will eventually book a loser. And that's exactly what happened when Efren and Buddy played. Efren had beaten just about everybody when he matched up with Buddy.

You also didn't know what actually went down that day. At that time, Buddy was red hot and it would be bad for business for Efren to beat Buddy. Hey, you need to catch some fish, right?

So what will happen if you beat and rob the best player in the country? Your fish pond will dry up!! Efren is afraid of Buddy or anybody else is just pure baloney!! You do not know what you are talking about!! You also have no idea of how these Filipino players play their games. Most players here like to brag about their skills and games and that makes them so easy to read. Check these Asian players, you'd be hard pressed to hear anybody bragging how good they are. It goes against their upbringing to brag about something that is so evident unlike most players in the world.

When Efren wins, he gets "lucky", right? You'll never him say that the other guy sucked. When any of these other guys win, they have to let the whole world knows that they won, especially if they get lucky to beat any of these Filipino guys with a lot of weight to boot..

Efren afraid of Buddy? Pleasssssse!!!!

 

[ginsu]

Possibly one of if not THE dumbest statement I have read in a while. I know Mark Tadd from his road days...great player and triple tough to beat and I would never take anything away from his talent but your NOT giving Hatch his due. I guess the diference is they both stopped playing for an extended amount of time <different reasons granted> but Dennis came back to be a world beater after his sabatical.

Saw them both play several times in the early 90's. Both were great young players. Dennis was not as mature as Mark at the table at that time and let his temper cost him quite a few matches. I have not seen Dennis play since. I have seen Mark recently and he is not the player he once was. I have not seen Dennis play in about 15 years. However, it is still my view based on how they played in the early 90's (can't say about any other period of time, only during the early 90's when I saw each of them play several times) that at that time Mark was consistantly the better player. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I would not insult you or indicate that you were dumb for having an opinion different then mine or for stating it, even if I disagreed.

 

[ginsu]

I agree !! I cant believe anyone would say Dennis Hatch has no chance. I have played both players. I played Tadd back in 91 or 92. He would practice breaking for hours at a time. His work ethic was unreal. He worked hard at his game.I saw Dennis play four or five times last year in Florida. Dennis Hatch is one of the most fearless players I have ever seen. I would think he is capable of beating anyone if he is breaking well.

My comment and still my opinion is that in the early 90's after seeing both play a number of times that Mark was the stronger player at that time. Can't say how Dennis plays since. I havn't seen him in many years. I did not say he had no chance I said I didn't think he was a match for Mark at that time. Great players always have a chance. I just think Mark was better then.

 

[ginsu]

I can. And I sort of understand the phenomenon, too.

What happens is players that haven't spent a lot of time around multiple pros see one pro when they are having a hot day, and automatically think that player is the best in the world. Conversely, they see another pro have a bad day, and believe they are not capable of beating so and so.

Guess what, everyone? ANY good pro can run 10 racks on a bar table, on any given day. ANY good pro can run 6 racks on a 9 foot table on any given day. ANY good pro has the ability to totally shut out their opponent for one set.

Kevin, you're right. It is ludicrous to think there is ANYone that Dennis won't lay the smack down on on any given day, gambling or tournament. Dennis is a world class player that just happens to be not totally in the game right now.

Furthermore, If Dennis decided to say right now that he was going to win the U.S. Open next year, and wanted 10-1 on a bet against it, I sure as hell wouldn't give him those odds. All a player of Dennis' caliber needs is for someone to say they are washed up. The same thing happened to Jose Parica a few years back when he overheard a bunch of Filipinos saying he was over the hill and couldn't win anymore.

He won at least three tournaments later that year, after having been in a dry spell.

Russ

If your comment was addressed to my post I will respond. If not please disregard. I have been playing pool at a very respectable speed for many years. Started playing in 1958 and have seen most of the great players of the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's ( have not been very active since 93 ) in most case's many times. I think my background in pool qualifies me to have an educated opinion on a given players ability, no one is always right. So as ludicrous as you might think my opinion is, what is your background that gives you the right to judge me in such a rude way?

 

[jay helfert]

Dennis has a gear you wouldn't believe. I watched him play quite a few times and he may be one of the most underated players today

I AGREE. Dennis has that Big Game, where he can string racks for a while. He is one of the few American players that had that kind of game. I can probably name them on one hand.

Buddy is the first I saw like that, and then Earl came along. Then there was Mark Tadd and Dennis came along at nearly the same time. And now Rodney can do it too. Johnny too a lesser degree. And that's about it for the American side.

In tennis, they would call it the "Serve and Volley" players, like Pete Sampras, maybe the best ever. In Pool, it's the break and run out artists, and there was never anyone better than Earl at his peak. He used to string racks in EVERY match he played. Fours, fives and sixes went on all day. It was pretty hard to fade for everyone else.

 

[jay helfert]

Thanks for the recap, Jay. We can't beat the recollections of the referee himself! I think you must have been present for every major pool contest! How about sharing some impressions from some of those matches you sweated between Alfredo DeOro and Bennie Allen?...

Doc

Well, if you must know, DeOro was the better player...at all games! Bennie could handle almost anyone but him. Of course Greenleaf put them both to shame, when he came along. He may have been responsible for retiring Alfredo. But that's another story.

I one day plan to write a book about the modern era of pool. This begins with "The Hustler" coming out in 1961. And it is when I first got interested in pool. So much of this is oral history, so it begs to be recorded. Freddie has done a good job with his tomes. He saw some things and I saw some others. But we both saw all the top players, from the 60's on. Grady too and a few others.

 

[jay helfert]

NICE accounting Jay.
Do you remember if there was similar side betting on the 5K match?
Thanks!
JoeyA

Joey, there was side betting, but by now, most of us had gotten "the cure" from betting against Efren/Caesar. I doubt there was more than a thousand or two on the side. And I didn't see the filipinos so anxious to side bet either. One more clue that something was amiss here.

 

[jay helfert]

My comment and still my opinion is that in the early 90's after seeing both play a number of times that Mark was the stronger player at that time. Can't say how Dennis plays since. I havn't seen him in many years. I did not say he had no chance I said I didn't think he was a match for Mark at that time. Great players always have a chance. I just think Mark was better then.

Mark was ready to play ANYONE then! No one was barred! The only players who may have had a chance of beating him at his peak were Busti and Buddy, the two big B's.

I'm editing this to include Johnny back then. I really shouldn't have left him out. He was at his top speed when Mark was peaking. Dennis was certainly one of the rising stars in Pool at the same time, but I don't think he would have wanted to play Mark back then. Just like he would have avoided the other three on here.

It's hard to gauge their relative speeds, but Dennis was right there in the elite circle of players from an early age on. Buddy, Busti and Johnny were a little more seasoned as high stakes gamblers, and perhaps more consistent as well. They would have been my picks if they were to match up with Dennis in the early 90's. And Mark was almost in another world, his game got so strong so quick. EVERYONE was a little wary of him! And he was fearless. No doubt he would have played any of these guys, even woofing at them on occasion. Only around Buddy did I see him dummy up. He had a lot of respect for the old man.

And by the way, Parica was still THE MAN! NO ONE challenged him back then! Not Johnny, not Busti, not even Buddy. They just said hello to each other and went on their way. As good as Mark was, he would give Parica a wide berth.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

Well, hate to insult you BUT...

Saw them both play several times in the early 90's. Both were great young players. Dennis was not as mature as Mark at the table at that time and let his temper cost him quite a few matches. I have not seen Dennis play since. I have seen Mark recently and he is not the player he once was. I have not seen Dennis play in about 15 years. However, it is still my view based on how they played in the early 90's (can't say about any other period of time, only during the early 90's when I saw each of them play several times) that at that time Mark was consistantly the better player. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I would not insult you or indicate that you were dumb for having an opinion different then mine or for stating it, even if I disagreed.

Still missed the point Ginsu, during the timeline they both were playing top shelf pool...so either of them could have won on any given day. Now, I feel like Dennis would have the edge based on who is winning and who is not. Sorry you feel insulted but when I read a statement as ridiculous as " Dennis really was no match for a in stroke Tad" I have to push the dumb button.

 

[ginsu]

Voodoo Daddy-The fact is at that time both were very good players , Mark was considered one of the very top cash players at that time and Dennis was considered one of the best up and coming players but not yet part of the top group. Sorry if you think this is ridiculous but that was the general feeling by most people in the pool ccommunity at that time. Now may be very different. It's fine to disagree but I would never infer that someone might be dumb for having a opinion different then mine. Since I don't even know you I would be out of line to infer that what you say is dumb even if I think you are misinformed. I think if you check with knowledgable people regarding pool players of that era they, in most part, agree that Mark was the better player at that time. Check post 54 by jay. He certainly is one of the most knowledgable people regarding pool player's worldwide in the past 40 or so years, is his statement also dumb or ridiculous? I wasn't looking for a fight just stating a informed opinion for that period on two great players. If you think Dennis was better at that time your welcome to your opinion and I don't think you are dumb for having it; even if you may be wrong in my opinion.

 

[RobertR]

I wasn't looking for a fight just stating a informed opinion for that period on two great players. If you think Dennis was better at that time your welcome to your opinion and I don't think you are dumb for having it; even if you may be wrong in my opinion.

Ginsu, your opinions are fine. You even make some good points. Your posts, on the other hand, are very argumentative. Here's what you felt you needed to the end of your response to my post: Perhaps if you ever played great and no longer could you would understand.

How on earth do you know how I play, and what I understand? More importantly, the comment was un-necessary.

Sometimes, it's what you don't say that gives your opinions more wieght.

 

[PoolBum]

In tennis, they would call it the "Serve and Volley" players, like Pete Sampras, maybe the best ever. In Pool, it's the break and run out artists, and there was never anyone better than Earl at his peak. He used to string racks in EVERY match he played. Fours, fives and sixes went on all day. It was pretty hard to fade for everyone else.

On an entertaining side note, I remember one Accu-Stats match from a Sands tourney where they had a guest in the booth who was a player in the tourney (a lesser known player, I forget his name). The conversation went like this:

Host: "So, you're out of the tourney now?"
Guest: "Yep, I'm out of the tourney."
Host: "Who beat you?"
Guest: "Well, I lost to Earl."
Host: "How did you play?"
Guest: "I put a six pack on him to start the match."
Host: "That wasn't enough, was it?"
Guest: "Nope, that wasn't enough."

 

[ginsu]

Ginsu, your opinions are fine. You even make some good points. Your posts, on the other hand, are very argumentative. Here's what you felt you needed to the end of your response to my post: Perhaps if you ever played great and no longer could you would understand.

How on earth do you know how I play, and what I understand? More importantly, the comment was un-necessary.

Sometimes, it's what you don't say that gives your opinions more wieght.

You are right. Not the proper way to express myself. I am sorry I don't mean to be argumentative. in my post to you what I meant was Tad once was great, no longer is, and has become frustrated with himself and now expresses himself poorly. Perhaps I have the same problem without realizing it. Thank you for pointing it out. I will work on it. Again I am sorry and will try not to throw any more stones in my glass house.

 

[worriedbeef]

On an entertaining side note, I remember one Accu-Stats match from a Sands tourney where they had a guest in the booth who was a player in the tourney (a lesser known player, I forget his name). The conversation went like this:

Host: "So, you're out of the tourney now?"
Guest: "Yep, I'm out of the tourney."
Host: "Who beat you?"
Guest: "Well, I lost to Earl."
Host: "How did you play?"
Guest: "I put a six pack on him to start the match."
Host: "That wasn't enough, was it?"
Guest: "Nope, that wasn't enough."

lol great post!