Masse and my epiphany

JamisonNeu

Mr. Masse
Silver Member
I have been thinking lately. That the reason masse seemed so special to me before, is that many players do not use it. Now after watching the growing amount of masse players in the world. I realize that it isn't nearly as hard as I thought, it is just a different sport. I think that almost anyone with enough desire can achieve consistancy and deliver most of the shots on the first or second try. It may be dificult to some and it may come easily to others but, it has no more merit than any other type of shot in pool. I no longer believe it is the hardest part of pool. It may be hard but, it's not the hardest.

If anyone is interested in learning about these shots, I am now open to teaching people how I masse.
Jamison
 
JamisonNeu said:
I don't really understand what you are trying to say to me Rick.

I as well like the Massé shots too. Don't take it hard either... I didn't really mean it in an offensive way... more like a complementary.
 
Thanks you. I think I get it. You were just saying how much you like to shoot masse, it's fun isn't it.
Jamison
 
Well in that case, I have a ? for ya. I have seen some of your massé shots over at your site. When you performed any of your massé shots, how can you acutally do a pretty lengthy shot without hitting your tip through the cloth (i.e. the big swing vid)? Less angle of the cue or more stroke to the shot?

I can do massé shots but my concept is that when you have to hit a soft or less curved shot, I "half-hit" stroke the cueball; but on your massé shots, I would usually follow through the cueball. Any comments on that?
 
I always hit the table even on the very softest masse shots. Not all of them damage the table but some do. I still haven't ripped a cloth but, I have went through cues, tips and furrels.
Also you get distance before curve by power if you angle the cue too much it won't come back like a yo yo just a curve. I think this is the answer you were looking for plus with a 90 degree cue you can't really rip the cloth just make a bad divet. No matter how hard you hit the table. I hope this is what you were asking.
Jamison
 
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JamisonNeu said:
...it's fun isn't it.

Yes... massés and I are like a weapon of mass excitement; too unbearable to not watch and to dangerous to see :-).
 
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i love hitting masse shots and i'm actually getting pretty good at them, but i was wondering if you guys could help me keep the action i get on the ball without jacking the cue into the cloth.
-thanks for the help and nice videos Jamison Neu!
 
The CheeZe said:
jacking the cue into the cloth.

Well, what I see is that usually nappy cloth would be vulnerable to tearing up the cloth (if that is what you were refering to by "jacking.... the cloth"). IMHO, Simonis Cloth is quite a durable cloth for doing shots like this (but don't get me wrong, it is also vunerable of tearing when doing it wrong). Use alot of chalk as well, because it would grab the CB well.

Make the massé shots your best....
 
The CheeZe said:
i love hitting masse shots and i'm actually getting pretty good at them, but i was wondering if you guys could help me keep the action i get on the ball without jacking the cue into the cloth.
-thanks for the help and nice videos Jamison Neu!

This is real tough to explain in written form. I have tried answering this question in print before and it got confusing for the both of us. The best thing I can tell you is to hold the cue towards the joint more and try to find a way to use your top arm to stop the cue. Like your arm can't go any further. This stroke is for shots like a jump masse. The cueball only goes foward a few feet before comming back. Or when the cue ball is close to an object ball and you want it to still go foward before it comes back. I hope this helps but, if not hit me up at Valley Forge in March, I could show you in person in seconds.
Jamison
 
JamisonNeu said:
This is real tough to explain in written form. I have tried answering this question in print before and it got confusing for the both of us. The best thing I can tell you is to hold the cue towards the joint more and try to find a way to use your top arm to stop the cue. Like your arm can't go any further. This stroke is for shots like a jump masse. The cueball only goes foward a few feet before comming back. Or when the cue ball is close to an object ball and you want it to still go foward before it comes back. I hope this helps but, if not hit me up at Valley Forge in March, I could show you in person in seconds.
Jamison

You know I think I'm starting to get what you said. Its like striking the ball and having your stroking arm kind of bounce back before it makes contact with the cloth. I'll have to expierament with this more, but I think I'm getting closer. Thanks for the help and I'm looking forward to seeing a video of the "My Best" shot on your site. Thats crazy...
 
The CheeZe said:
You know I think I'm starting to get what you said. Its like striking the ball and having your stroking arm kind of bounce back before it makes contact with the cloth. I'll have to expierament with this more, but I think I'm getting closer. Thanks for the help and I'm looking forward to seeing a video of the "My Best" shot on your site. Thats crazy...

Sounds like you got it. That is exactly what I was trying to tell you. Your arm has to do the bouncing. Not like a thought but, just because it can't go forward any more.

Good Luck.

It's great for 90 degree turns and the up a couple diamonds down the rail like the yo yo. I also use it for Sharkey's Burnout. The rebound from the OB allows helps it to look like alot of spin. It's not really good for turns down the table. Unless you need to go a few feet out before turning. It's a great stroke in masse because it's always the same amount of action, very consistent as far as masse is concerned. Then it's all about hitting the cue ball exactly where you intended.

There is another stroke needed when the ball is going long distances. Let's say we want it to go 7ft before turning 180 and for this type you need a much bigger back stroke. You also need to angle the cue very slightly. Angle it too much no return, the cue ball will hit the short rail before it reverses. (If I only had more table...)

Think of it more like a break shot, not fast, not hard, but very smooth and steady. I always stress the amount accuracy effects the results if you are off 1 little bit with this one, then bad things will happen, tips will fly and cue's will forever sound like a tunning fork. This is the stroke that will rip a table every time. You will be ripping the cloth no matter what or at the least a small cut...

Jamison
 
Masse shots are special. They require a person to learn more than is required to just play the game. But like all things they are not something impossible or magical, just that the very best players, such as yourself, make them seem magical because you have achieved a level of precision that ost people will never be able to do or experience.

Of course the techniques can be taught. They must first be discovered, honed and somehow translated into a form that alllows them to be easily communicated to the student.

You should still think of masse' shots as special however. The reason being is that beyond technique there is a lot of talent and discipline required to be able to master them and perform them consistently. And there is a drive to see how much one can make the cueball dance.

Instead of making a comparison of how hard/easy masse' is compared to regular pool it would be better to simply say that they are seperate disciplines that happen to be performed on the same equipment. Kind of like a motorcycle and an auto race on the same track. Neither is inherently harder and both require a specific set of skills to be mastered in order to excel. Artisitic Pool and Masse' in particular, is much more entertaining to the masses than high level pool is.

Mr. Neu, you appear to be quite talented. Why don't you travel and give exhibitions like your more well known counterparts who don't seem to have quite the gifted stroke that you do? You are very articulate and it seems quite a character. Get on the billiard cloth replacement circuit. :-) That is where you go to poolroom where the owner is going to replace the cloth in a few days and you give masse' demonstrations and clinics to show and teach people how to do it properly.

Just a thought.
 
JamisonNeu said:
Let's say we want it to go 7ft before turning 180 and for this type you need a much bigger back stroke... (If I only had more table...)
I feel your pain man... I just wish i had the space for a 9ft. table in my house without having to knock down a wall. ;)
 
That sure sounds like a good idea. If you know someone, have them call me. I never knew something like that existed but, it sounds like a fit.

A wise man once told me, never tell anyone what you are going to do or what you have done. I think it's a little too much like bragging.

I slip on this one alot but, I make an effort to keep quiet about most of what I am doing.

Thank you for your kind observations.

Jamison


Roadie said:
Mr. Neu, you appear to be quite talented. Why don't you travel and give exhibitions like your more well known counterparts who don't seem to have quite the gifted stroke that you do? You are very articulate and it seems quite a character. Get on the billiard cloth replacement circuit. :-) That is where you go to poolroom where the owner is going to replace the cloth in a few days and you give masse' demonstrations and clinics to show and teach people how to do it properly.

Just a thought.
 
{{{{Something that came into my mind}}}}

I have always wondered...

Since most "old skewl" billiard players are against using the jump cues as well as some Filipinos (whom are like fantastic Rotation and Carom players), shouldn't the fanfare be when one pockets a ball with a massé shot rather than a jump shot? I mean, I get a tad jealous because I really do not attempt jumps as much (if not at all) and when I pull off a curve shot and make a ball (which would be 1/9 chances) I am quite proud of myself. Shouldn't the hooplah be on the Massé rather than the jump?
 
Both types of shots are pretty sporty. There are many tough jump shots as well as there are many makable masse shots. Any time a OB is in the middle of the table and the CB is in a corner hidden. I always think great shot if a guy makes it whether it's a jump, kick or a masse shot.
 
Why so Blue, Jamison?

JamisonNeu said:
I have been thinking lately. That the reason masse seemed so special to me before, is that many players do not use it. Now after watching the growing amount of masse players in the world. I realize that it isn't nearly as hard as I thought, it is just a different sport. I think that almost anyone with enough desire can achieve consistancy and deliver most of the shots on the first or second try. It may be dificult to some and it may come easily to others but, it has no more merit than any other type of shot in pool. I no longer believe it is the hardest part of pool. It may be hard but, it's not the hardest.

If anyone is interested in learning about these shots, I am now open to teaching people how I masse.
Jamison


Hey, I have always loved the masse. It is not nearly as difficult as it seems upon seeing it for the first time. They are interesting because to a novice, they appear to be impossible. This is not unlike a simple draw shot. If you have never played pool, and are not aware of the physics behind it, a draw shot defies understanding. Admit it, the very first time you saw someone draw the length of the table, you were impressed.
Masses are a specialty shot, they do not come up in every game, and a great many players do not spend the time necessary to develop this skill enough where it becomes more than a last resort, low percentage proposition. In most game situations, you will look for a kick, saftey, or even a jump before resorting to a masse ( unless it is only a slight curve and the target is big). I mean if you watch the pros play, they very rarely attempt a slightly low percentage bank shot over a dead on safe ( unless of course they are able to play a safety at the same time).
So masse is usually for show and exhibitions. Though it has very many practical applications. I personally will shoot a masse before a jump in most situations, just because for me it is higher percentage. A practical masse is not too difficult at all to perform with a good amount of accuracy. It just requires a little effort and understanding. Robert Byrne has explained this shot in great detail in his books, and probably has shown it as well as anyone on paper.
Jamison, I do not know why all of a sudden, you feel that the masse is somehow less than it was say two years ago. It isn't. It seems to me that you are just disappointed to find out that you are not the only one who can perform it well. You were not keeping it a secret from anyone. You do not have a monopoly on it. The masse shot ( even the extreme ones) have been around since the 1800's. Captain Minguid ( not sure if I spelled that right) was able to do some very impressive masse shots way before the great equipment we now enjoy was available. He was the inventor of the leather cue tip. So, the masse has been around as long as the leather cue tip ( even before billiard chalk). You obviously have experience in trick shots, you should know that the most difficult shots are not always the ones that are the most impressive to onlookers. Many trick shots are incredibly easy to perform. Masse's are still very impressive to people who have never seen them, or cannot perform them.
A side note, technically just about all shots are masse shots. Anytime you shoot with english the cueball will curve on its way to the object ball. Because ANY downward hit with english will cause this, and no one holds the cue perfectly level to the floor. As you increase the angle of the cue, and the off center hit, the curve will also increase.
 
Poolpro,

What I meant to say is that...

I am learning that everything in pool is relative, nothing is harder or easier than anything else.

The very first time you make a bank shot it was probably hard, with practice and understanding, you started making them more often, and in some cases with great ease. It's all so alot easier to learn a bank shot, if you have someone there to tell you the how's and why's. This is all that I was trying to say.

To answer your rash statements.

How could I possibly be disappointed in others shooting masse, well or otherwise? This is after all my ultimate goal in pool.

No, masse is not a secret, it never has been. It's also no secret that it takes a lot of time to learn, just like most of the other parts of the game. I think that part of the beauty to the game is being able to share your know how and watch others enjoying the things you have learned.

I hope this clears up what I can barely relate in writing.

Jamison
 
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