MatchRoom's response to the WPA player sanctions:

iusedtoberich said:
I’m showing my naivity here… how do the major sports like basketball and ice hockey do the Olympics? I recall until the 1990’s, basketball in the Olympics disallowed any professionals. Then they changed the rules and had Michael Jordan and the “Dream Team”.

Is there a whole separate system for basketball and hockey to pick the Olympic players compared to what we see in the NBA and NHL? If so, is this system international?And did that system change for basketball in the 1990’s?

Can any of this be applied to pool?
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Yes there are IOC affiliates for all those sports. And of course the NHL and MLB don’t listen to anything these affiliates say because they would go out of business. Typically the pro sports leagues negotiate some contract with the IOC affiliate to make their players available for competition.
 
Eligibility for the Olympics changed, it had to. USA, and a few other countries, were the only ones sending amateurs.
 
Three things seem to come up frequently in these kind of discussions: Olympics, Government Funding and what did WPA do for players? When I watched the podcast where they had the EPBF guy on it was apparent as well, that Europeans and North-Americans live in quite different bubbles/universes. Of course, that's the beauty. Differences are interesting.

Some countries (e.g. most of the Europeans) intentionally support amateur sport and talent development. It's good for their citizens, physically and mentally. So, many societies deemed it valuable to support. (Same with cultural things like music and the arts,...) Most of these countries set up a system, how they support these sports. To get a fair piece of the pie, it has to be a recognized sport by the IOC and organized. That nurtured a whole pyramid organization in each sport. National, Regional foundation and them being organized in the WPA to be IOC-recognized. That's just what these governments go by. You do a valid sport, you organized yourself, you get government support. Funding for top talent to have pro conditions is only a small portion of this. It goes much deeper: Soccer clubs get slots in school gyms in the winter, clubs can get sponsor money and the sponsor gets tax write-offs for sponsoring a sport (doing good for the society). To have these benefits you have to organize and at least try to be olympic. That's also the reason why there are team leagues for sports like Tennis, Chess or Pool. Sounds counter-intuitive for non-team sports, but that's how recognition as a sport works.

Seems like in the US, without a government sponsor system, everything has to be private engagement. Other than that there are only High School or College Programs for most sports. If you ask, what the WPA ever did for players in the US, they are the wrong ones to ask. You would have to ask a national federation to do this. In Germany it's the DBU, who runs the leagues or national/regional championships. As well as regional and national trainng camps and instructor development. It's the EPBF who runs the Eurotour and European Chamiponships. They only need the WPA to standardize rules and represent to the IOC. Plus, ideally, run World Championships. It should not be the WPA's mission, to run a pro tour.

A few friends here in the US, I talked to about the differences of Pool in Germany and the US, initially always thought of Europe being the land of milk and honey. But it's just different and comes with it's own downsides. They are trapped in mega-bureaucracy. 20 years ago, I remember these huge discussions about dress codes in even the most local beginner's leagues. They were soo restrictive for no reason: black pants, no jeans, black dress shoes, Team Dress shirts, ....... And, for course, no drinking. Some places had a secret drink menu with items like "brown Orangina".

Here in the US I wish there would be more on offer for ABC players to play and develop in one nationwide system, instead of all these scattered APA, BCA, etc.
 
stewie said:
Three things seem to come up frequently in these kind of discussions: Olympics, Government Funding and what did WPA do for players? When I watched the podcast where they had the EPBF guy on it was apparent as well, that Europeans and North-Americans live in quite different bubbles/universes. Of course, that's the beauty. Differences are interesting.

Some countries (e.g. most of the Europeans) intentionally support amateur sport and talent development. It's good for their citizens, physically and mentally. So, many societies deemed it valuable to support. (Same with cultural things like music and the arts,...) Most of these countries set up a system, how they support these sports. To get a fair piece of the pie, it has to be a recognized sport by the IOC and organized. That nurtured a whole pyramid organization in each sport. National, Regional foundation and them being organized in the WPA to be IOC-recognized. That's just what these governments go by. You do a valid sport, you organized yourself, you get government support. Funding for top talent to have pro conditions is only a small portion of this. It goes much deeper: Soccer clubs get slots in school gyms in the winter, clubs can get sponsor money and the sponsor gets tax write-offs for sponsoring a sport (doing good for the society). To have these benefits you have to organize and at least try to be olympic. That's also the reason why there are team leagues for sports like Tennis, Chess or Pool. Sounds counter-intuitive for non-team sports, but that's how recognition as a sport works.

Seems like in the US, without a government sponsor system, everything has to be private engagement. Other than that there are only High School or College Programs for most sports. If you ask, what the WPA ever did for players in the US, they are the wrong ones to ask. You would have to ask a national federation to do this. In Germany it's the DBU, who runs the leagues or national/regional championships. As well as regional and national trainng camps and instructor development. It's the EPBF who runs the Eurotour and European Chamiponships. They only need the WPA to standardize rules and represent to the IOC. Plus, ideally, run World Championships. It should not be the WPA's mission, to run a pro tour.

A few friends here in the US, I talked to about the differences of Pool in Germany and the US, initially always thought of Europe being the land of milk and honey. But it's just different and comes with it's own downsides. They are trapped in mega-bureaucracy. 20 years ago, I remember these huge discussions about dress codes in even the most local beginner's leagues. They were soo restrictive for no reason: black pants, no jeans, black dress shoes, Team Dress shirts, ....... And, for course, no drinking. Some places had a secret drink menu with items like "brown Orangina".

Here in the US I wish there would be more on offer for ABC players to play and develop in one nationwide system, instead of all these scattered APA, BCA, etc.
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Well, I guess we suck over here, and we know it, but we are so good at it that we can't stop ourselves.

I would be interested if you have numbers for the amateur players organizations over the pond.
 
buckshotshoey said:
Thats why Matchroom is successful. Emily Frazier is very good at it, like her or not.
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They are indeed. The predator tour can learn some basic things from them that cost little money and little time. Matchroom posts replays of matches leading up to tournaments, does count downs and other social media posts. It’s impossible to not know a matchroom event is coming up. Whereas with the predator tour, I always find out it’s happening two days after it starts.
336Robin said:
I'd love to have that job. I know I could do it. I would have taken plans to corporations on my own that would work even with the advertising metrics, but I've never produced a streamed event before, Funny thing about that, "Who has outside of Predator and Matchroom?" This is why Matchroom has no problem letting players play any event they want to. They have virtually no competition in the world that anyone would pay any attention to. Barry Hearn said he would be glad to work with anyone whose goal was to eliminate player entry fees, but who has an idea to make that happen? No one who has also produced a pool event. How about someone who has a great idea on how it can be done and knows how to get production on the low? I've already worked on that and moved on from it, because I stand no chance of being taken seriously.

In a basic sense, all it would be is the Event Business and hiring of Production at a rate that makes it work. Of course the event series has to be planned to work for advertisers, now that is where the magic comes in.

There are a few more details for sure, but I've looked at and it's doable as long as you have the credentials you need.
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I was on the executive team for a not for profit school (unpaid), and at least 20% of my time was spent doing outreach to businesses, developing relationships and helping with promotional materials (interviews, thought leadership etc.). I feel like the WPA needs someone doing that type of thing.

With respect to eliminating entry fees, I believe the WST has done that actually. They’ve essentially developed their revenue to a point where they don’t need it coming from the players. With respect to the WNT, as long as they keep an open model to events I expect if they get rid of entry fees that it will only be for perhaps the top 100 on their rankings or something. They probably wouldn’t want to let the local 450 player sign up for free. The entry fees will serve as a filtering mechanism.
 
stewie said:
Three things seem to come up frequently in these kind of discussions: Olympics, Government Funding and what did WPA do for players? When I watched the podcast where they had the EPBF guy on it was apparent as well, that Europeans and North-Americans live in quite different bubbles/universes. Of course, that's the beauty. Differences are interesting.

Some countries (e.g. most of the Europeans) intentionally support amateur sport and talent development. It's good for their citizens, physically and mentally. So, many societies deemed it valuable to support. (Same with cultural things like music and the arts,...) Most of these countries set up a system, how they support these sports. To get a fair piece of the pie, it has to be a recognized sport by the IOC and organized. That nurtured a whole pyramid organization in each sport. National, Regional foundation and them being organized in the WPA to be IOC-recognized. That's just what these governments go by. You do a valid sport, you organized yourself, you get government support. Funding for top talent to have pro conditions is only a small portion of this. It goes much deeper: Soccer clubs get slots in school gyms in the winter, clubs can get sponsor money and the sponsor gets tax write-offs for sponsoring a sport (doing good for the society). To have these benefits you have to organize and at least try to be olympic. That's also the reason why there are team leagues for sports like Tennis, Chess or Pool. Sounds counter-intuitive for non-team sports, but that's how recognition as a sport works.

Seems like in the US, without a government sponsor system, everything has to be private engagement. Other than that there are only High School or College Programs for most sports. If you ask, what the WPA ever did for players in the US, they are the wrong ones to ask. You would have to ask a national federation to do this. In Germany it's the DBU, who runs the leagues or national/regional championships. As well as regional and national trainng camps and instructor development. It's the EPBF who runs the Eurotour and European Chamiponships. They only need the WPA to standardize rules and represent to the IOC. Plus, ideally, run World Championships. It should not be the WPA's mission, to run a pro tour.

A few friends here in the US, I talked to about the differences of Pool in Germany and the US, initially always thought of Europe being the land of milk and honey. But it's just different and comes with it's own downsides. They are trapped in mega-bureaucracy. 20 years ago, I remember these huge discussions about dress codes in even the most local beginner's leagues. They were soo restrictive for no reason: black pants, no jeans, black dress shoes, Team Dress shirts, ....... And, for course, no drinking. Some places had a secret drink menu with items like "brown Orangina".

Here in the US I wish there would be more on offer for ABC players to play and develop in one nationwide system, instead of all these scattered APA, BCA, etc.
Click to expand...
This is where things get murky for me. I’ve always known the local federations in Europe have played a integral role. And I also know that part of their success is based on the existence of government programs.

But where I still have questions is what role the WPA has had in the set up and running of those organisations. If we look at this from a corporate perspective, which one of these two leaders are they,
  1. The one that does next to nothing but has some high performers on their team. Those high performers do some awesome things and the absentee leader takes some credit because they are on their team. Or.
  2. The leader who is involved and gives support and guidance when necessary which is integral to the success of their people.
That’s where I struggle because I hear a lot about what other promoters are doing, what the federations are doing but not tangible things that the WPA is doing.
 
Cameron Smith said:
If we look at this from a corporate perspective, which one of these two leaders are they,
  1. The one that does next to nothing but has some high performers on their team. Those high performers do some awesome things and the absentee leader takes some credit because they are on their team. Or.
  2. The leader who is involved and gives support and guidance when necessary which is integral to the success of their people.
That’s where I struggle because I hear a lot about what other promoters are doing, what the federations are doing but not tangible things that the WPA is doing.
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"corporate" made me chuckle. Definitely #1. These guys running the federations are elected volunteers. They don't get paid, only reimbursed for expenses. A federation might hire a GM to run the office, but they are all governed by it's members. The WPA's member meeting was mentioned. that's where they want to vote on the ban. That's not what a GM would decide alone in any of these federations.

As for the role of the WPA for players and taking a cut: I think that comes from the mindset, that a pro player would outgrow the national federation, by travelling the world to play tournaments. If the WPA protects the tour schedule, meaning a World 9-Ball title would really be the only World 9-Ball title, that would be a service to the competitors in that event. The winner would never be doubted to be the true World 9-Ball Champion. Does it have to go as far as somebody who played Turning Stone, being a Matchroom Ranking event, not be allowed to play any Eurotour event, would be the question now.
 
stewie said:
According to Wikipedia, for Germany, the DBU had 23.198 members in 742 clubs in 15 regional federations.
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You're the man! Thank you.

The SGMA reports sometimes you and find them online usually say:

31,000,00 total players in the US
11-13 million actives

These are based on retail sales numbers and I'm not sure how accurate they are.

What I am finding is there are a lot of league systems that won't come up in a google search, so I counted the ones
that I can find and my estimation is there are no more than 1 million league players in the US.

The views on YouTube are a pretty good indication of how many players that don't watch Pool and that to advertisers
is a big deal.
 
The unpaid volunteers are exercising control of players, events, prize money and WADA.

Looking from the outside its like the puppet masters have finally decided to stop letting the "players and promoters" take the lead on new directions for sanctioned billiards.

How much money has been or will be lost due to the bans? And why are bans minimum 1 year no sanctioned play?

For pool players and promoters to get ahead of this situation it will take more than maintaining the status quo.

In cases of power struggle it is usually those without it that lose the most often. In this case what power have players or promoters exercised on the WPA or WCBS whether directly or indirectly through IOC regs? Players and promoters are powerless, this means every one is equal and in a system where everyone is equal,... what could go wrong?
 
IMO, one possible trickle down effect might be that more money will be added to local and regional events as we see Matchroom Sports stage their tournaments. Just regionally, Hardtimes Sacramento puts on several four and five figure added tournaments on a fairly regular basis. As I look at other regional events, there are more and more four figure added tournaments. This is good for the game and players.
 
DaWizard said:
View attachment 717125
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The NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL etc. are all for profit organizations and they are EXTREMELY profitable. Profits drive performance in these organizations and although team owners make the most money, the players are paid substantially. The fans continue to watch, buy merch, tickets, etc. So I think Matchroom and the WNT is the way to go. Branching into 10 ball, 8 ball, 1 Pocket, etc should follow.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think there is zero chance of this by Matchroom.
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Zero chance of the “World Nineball Tour” doing that? The company that launched the “nineball.” brand? The company that incorporated a subsidiary called the “World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation”?

I’m not sure I understand why you say that.
 
MattPoland said:
Zero chance of the “World Nineball Tour” doing that? The company that launched the “nineball.” brand? The company that incorporated a subsidiary called the “World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation”?

I’m not sure I understand why you say that.
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It's about viewership and price per view.
 
MattPoland said:
Zero chance of the “World Nineball Tour” doing that? The company that launched the “nineball.” brand? The company that incorporated a subsidiary called the “World Professional Nineball Pool Corporation”?

I’m not sure I understand why you say that.
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I think they will remain focused on one discipline.
 
Cameron Smith said:
They are indeed. The predator tour can learn some basic things from them that cost little money and little time. Matchroom posts replays of matches leading up to tournaments, does count downs and other social media posts. It’s impossible to not know a matchroom event is coming up. Whereas with the predator tour, I always find out it’s happening two days after it starts.

I was on the executive team for a not for profit school (unpaid), and at least 20% of my time was spent doing outreach to businesses, developing relationships and helping with promotional materials (interviews, thought leadership etc.). I feel like the WPA needs someone doing that type of thing.

With respect to eliminating entry fees, I believe the WST has done that actually. They’ve essentially developed their revenue to a point where they don’t need it coming from the players. With respect to the WNT, as long as they keep an open model to events I expect if they get rid of entry fees that it will only be for perhaps the top 100 on their rankings or something. They probably wouldn’t want to let the local 450 player sign up for free. The entry fees will serve as a filtering mechanism.
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I agree with the money added statements you made. I also think there is a source of income from sponsors they aren't tapping into. Let's face it
no one else is doing anything positive for Pool it would seem but whatever is done needs to make money for the sponsor and the organization putting on the events before it can filter down to the players. Again I would love to have that job. All they would have to do for me is expenses paid to go to meet with people and some paltry amount depending on how aggressive they wanted me to work at it. I would want a percentage of the money I got them but that wouldn't be much and it wouldn't cost them anything.
 
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