McCready bingeing!

[JPB2]

I enjoy watching a professional not dominate the table because of tight pockets. It makes them miss and know what?
It does the same thing to me. So the pros and I share that same experience and frustration. I also enjoy watching pro
golfers struggle in bad weather like last Thursday 1st round of the Genesis Open played at Torrey Pines because of the
LA fires. Conditions were cold, rainy and windy and about a dozen players shot under par in a128 player field and 4 under was the lowest score. Only 3 birdies were made on the par 5’s and none of the players reached the greens in two. Players came up short on the par 3’s, and all the chips and putts. In other words, they played like mere mortals.

Then the weekend came and the course dried out, the sun came out, the winds were calm and birdies and eagles were pretty commonplace. It was more enjoyable watching the players struggle and fight to get par than sink 10’ eagle putts.

Watching players on videos with ginormous pockets is hardly exciting. My high run is on a Gold Crown with 5” CP when I was in my 30’s but I can’t come close to doing it with the pockets I play on today. 1/2 - 3/4” of an inch smaller makes a difference. It is harder to run the table in 14.1, 10 ball, 8 ball and 9 ball as well.

However, harder cuts both ways and means I’ll likely get to shoot again after I miss. Now I might have to sit for a rack or two but I’ll get another chance. With 5” pockets, my match could be over before I did get to shoot again.

Whether I’m watching the pros, or my choice as well, the harder it is, the more enjoyable it becomes. If I could play on a 10’ six legged table with 4 1/4” pockets, that would be my ideal setup. Tight pockets will make you a better player if you don’t succumb to the frustration at the outset. After you start to run racks, everything changes and you see the table for what it is & how far to go before playing a devilish safety instead of attempting a tough shot because you failed to get shape. After playing on tight table for years, no pool table seems too hard except a 12’ table which is insane.

I didn’t watch much, but the thing about golf is weather changes. So the pros got two different experiences and so did the fans. Penal golf is ok once in a while, particularly at the US Open. But not always IMO. There is a reason Riviera is ranked higher architecturally than Torrey Pines. I only played Torrey before the renovation and have never played Riviera. Torrey is beautiful and plenty tough for people who think a 460 yard up hill hole into the wind off the ocean is hard. . I like the US Open generally, but think it is good we have the Masters and Open Championship. I also think it is good that the USGA has taken the US Open to courses other than northeast courses with the same set up every year.

As For pool, pros playing on tough equipment appeals to some and I think some tournaments should have them. But people won’t watch as much if that is all there is IMO. And if they have seen pros put packages together on moderate equipment they might find the grind of tough conditions more interesting. Maybe.

 

[Bavafongoul]

All of the CA coastal courses play tough like Torrey Pines in SD, Pebble, SpyGlass & Spanish Bay in Monterey, Bayonet at Fort Ord, Del Monte in Monterey, Presidio in SF and even Moro Bay. The ocean ensures the courses are always plush with the fog conditions and the winds can be tortuous. Having played these courses, I never came close to shooting my index, lost balls in the water and enjoyed golf more than I ever have because of the course layouts. It was humbling but I made some birdies & scrambled for par which I knew many pros have done on those same holes. But I also had a few snowmen along the way. Playing hard courses always made playing my home courses seem so much easier and I always did better….for awhile.

 

[JAM]

You can say about most sports jam.. it’s hard to compare tiger woods to say bobby jones. golf was totally different then From the equipment to the courses. Everything evolves.. not always for the better..but it does evolve.

That is exactly my thought. When people today say the pool pros today are much better now than pool pros years ago, the pool pros of today are using and playing with different equipment and have different rules. It is important, I guess, to compare apples to apples. If the pool pros of today were put in a time machine and played with the same equipment, rules, and hardware as what was available to the pool pros of yesterday, they just might not do well without their black shafts, jump cues, gloves, chalk, cloth, tables, et cetera, though they would eventually adjust, to include playijng all games of pocket billiards, not just 9-ball.

The comparisons of pool pros' strength on a field of green, tournament blue, of grey cloth need to take into account that the conditions were much different then than today. Ask Earl Strickland his thought about jump cues about 20 years ago, and you'd get an earful. Ask Keith McCready what he thought when they changed the rules from two-shot/roll-out to the rules of today. He believes the East Coast changed the rules because they couldn't beat the players from the West Coast. But that's the world according to Keith.

 

[trob]

That is exactly my thought. When people today say the pool pros today are much better now than pool pros years ago, the pool pros of today are using and playing with different equipment and have different rules. It is important, I guess, to compare apples to apples. If the pool pros of today were put in a time machine and played with the same equipment, rules, and hardware as what was available to the pool pros of yesterday, they just might not do well without their black shafts, jump cues, gloves, chalk, cloth, tables, et cetera, though they would eventually adjust, to include playijng all games of pocket billiards, not just 9-ball.

The comparisons of pool pros' strength on a field of green, tournament blue, of grey cloth need to take into account that the conditions were much different then than today. Ask Earl Strickland his thought about jump cues about 20 years ago, and you'd get an earful. Ask Keith McCready what he thought when they changed the rules from two-shot/roll-out to the rules of today. He believes the East Coast changed the rules because they couldn't beat the players from the West Coast. But that's the world according to Keith.

Absolutely .. I know I struggle if I play on an old school bar table these days where the cloth and rails are slow. I’m not accustomed to it like I was 30 years ago. you find yourself having to really stroke shots that you’ve become accustomed to adding a little spin and finessing it around the table. Suddenly your out of your comfort zone and Rhythm. Your telling your brain you need to hit it at a certain speed but when your shooting the shot your brain noooo lol slow that stroke down lol
watching the old straight pool matches I feel that’s why they just didn’t blow open the racks like they do now. They chipped at the racks getting balls out. I think it was harder to get the speed and spin that you can now so it was more difficult for a big break out and the balls scatter everywhere.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

The style of play has evolved quite a bit since those days.
(practically) Everyone's a robot now.

As a very long time player (watcher of matches) today’s pool is very boring to watch. If I watch any matches it is always the classics.

 

[billb]

That is exactly my thought. When people today say the pool pros today are much better now than pool pros years ago, the pool pros of today are using and playing with different equipment and have different rules. It is important, I guess, to compare apples to apples. If the pool pros of today were put in a time machine and played with the same equipment, rules, and hardware as what was available to the pool pros of yesterday, they just might not do well without their black shafts, jump cues, gloves, chalk, cloth, tables, et cetera, though they would eventually adjust, to include playijng all games of pocket billiards, not just 9-ball.

The comparisons of pool pros' strength on a field of green, tournament blue, of grey cloth need to take into account that the conditions were much different then than today. Ask Earl Strickland his thought about jump cues about 20 years ago, and you'd get an earful. Ask Keith McCready what he thought when they changed the rules from two-shot/roll-out to the rules of today. He believes the East Coast changed the rules because they couldn't beat the players from the West Coast. But that's the world according to Keith.

Agreed. Things are just different now. The gear that Keith had back in the day was unreal. A friend and I have both watched his US Open videos recently and have discussed just how flawless his game was during those videos. And, based on what I read on here, it sounds like he was well below his peak at that time yet that game was a very high level. To be able to put him in the Mosconi Cup under that pressure with those crowds.....now THAT would be TV worthy. Could you imagine him owning the room in Vegas or London or wherever? The better he played, the more he fed off of the crowd and the more he fed off of the crowd, the better he played. Just imagine him and Shaw matching up in a high level Mosconi Cup match with the crowd fired up. That would be more like a UFC environment when it comes to the crowd.

Its alot like the debate of who is better.....Jordan or Lebron. Personally, I don't think its a debate. The difference isn't necessarily about basketball to me. The difference is that one would do absolutely anything to win. He was driven to be victorious at a level only matched by the possible likes of players like Tiger and Tom Brady. Then again, I am from the Jordan era. With him, no drama or diva type stuff. He simply wanted to beat you down to make sure you knew who the Sheriff was. It didn't matter, if you were playing basketball or checkers, he wanted to win with the same ferocity. Beat him and oh boy....he took it next level. Eventually, you would lose. There was no entitlement with him. Simply a drive to be the the best.....and he was (and still is) the greatest ever.

Back to the pool idea though...the robots of today (who I very much respect and admire as far as their skills) would certainly take time to adjust to the conditions of yesteryear.

To say that one era is much better than another is like Jordan vs Lebron.....very debatable. And each person will have their own stance on the idea.

Mine, for what it's worth is that both would have an equally difficult time adjusting because each generation would have big hurdles.

What we can say for sure though his that players like Keith had more than just game....they had charisma. That isn't debatable. And because of that undebatable difference, we can say for certainty that there will never be another like him.

 

[JPB2]

All of the CA coastal courses play tough like Torrey Pines in SD, Pebble, SpyGlass & Spanish Bay in Monterey, Bayonet at Fort Ord, Del Monte in Monterey, Presidio in SF and even Moro Bay. The ocean ensures the courses are always plush with the fog conditions and the winds can be tortuous. Having played these courses, I never came close to shooting my index, lost balls in the water and enjoyed golf more than I ever have because of the course layouts. It was humbling but I made some birdies & scrambled for par which I knew many pros have done on those same holes. But I also had a few snowmen along the way. Playing hard courses always made playing my home courses seem so much easier and I always did better….for awhile.

Interesting. Your preferences are different from mine. You’ve played way more of the CA courses, but I’ve played a few tough ones. The course that I enjoyed the most was Ballyneal shortly after they opened. No tee markers, no trees, no OB, no water, no cart paths. Presents difficulties and challenge, but allows freedom and some creativity. I haven’t played in Scotland or Ireland. I think I’d like a lot of those courses. Anyway, I think it highlights how people may prefer one style over another.

 

[JPB2]

Absolutely .. I know I struggle if I play on an old school bar table these days where the cloth and rails are slow. I’m not accustomed to it like I was 30 years ago. you find yourself having to really stroke shots that you’ve become accustomed to adding a little spin and finessing it around the table. Suddenly your out of your comfort zone and Rhythm. Your telling your brain you need to hit it at a certain speed but when your shooting the shot your brain noooo lol slow that stroke down lol
watching the old straight pool matches I feel that’s why they just didn’t blow open the racks like they do now. They chipped at the racks getting balls out. I think it was harder to get the speed and spin that you can now so it was more difficult for a big break out and the balls scatter everywhere.

I recently played a league match on Valleys. I hadn’t played on one in a long time. They were actually in good shape, new cloth but not Simonis. The newer pockets that aren’t 5” but aren’t Diamonds. The rails were good. It played different from a Diamond 7’ but it played fine. Sometimes you had to stroke one where you wouldn’t on a Diamond. It wasn’t as slow as I expected but it was different. Nothing to complain about.

 

[pt109]

I recently played a league match on Valleys. I hadn’t played on one in a long time. They were actually in good shape, new cloth but not Simonis. The newer pockets that aren’t 5” but aren’t Diamonds. The rails were good. It played different from a Diamond 7’ but it played fine. Sometimes you had to stroke one where you wouldn’t on a Diamond. It wasn’t as slow as I expected but it was different. Nothing to complain about.

What cue ball did you use?

 

[Black-Balled]

The last time I saw him play live was in the finals of a one pocket tournament in Goldsboro, NC about fifteen years ago. It was like going to a show of some kind. The guy was entertaining if nothing else.

Fast Eddie's?
We have been in the same room at the same time then.

 

[Black-Balled]

Bingo! Players from Keith's era were not one-trick ponies and could play all games. Keith, much to my surprise, won money on the snooker table when we were together, but from what I understand, there used to be ring games on snooker tables in California all the time.

First time I went on the road, we ran into a snooker table at Baker's in Tampa, Florida. That's where I met Grady Mathews. The regulars were playing a ring game on the snooker table, and my partner went bust. You could go five, six, and seven games without ever getting a shot, but yet you have to fork over $100 each time to the winner. Brutal action but nice if you can win at it.

All this "today's players are better than players from yesteryear" is not a statistically significant comparison. The equipment was much different, to include the game rules and what's considered the "gaffe" cues, e.g. jump cues and the black shafts. Even the cloth was different. Maybe a better comparision is players of today, especially the one-trick ponies, could not survive on the equipment, hardware, and rules from days gone by.

As an aside, I remember a tournament at Ultimate Billiards in Connecticut on the Joss NE 9-Ball Tour, which at that time had quite a few champions competing on a regular basis. The pool room owner put brand-new cloth on the tables, and it begain with a "G." I can't remember the name without going througn my pool archives, but it was really fast, too fast for most. Keith had no trouble adjusting because that's what road players do when on the road. You have to adjust quickly to strange equipment.

Keith made it to the finals against Ronnie Alcano. It took the railbirds longer to jockey for position and find a seat to sweat the finals match than it did for the duration of the match itself, 9 to zero. Keith wins in less than 20 minutes. A short time later, Ronnie Alcano defeated Ralf Souquet to win the World 9-Ball Championship in Philippines.

View attachment 808460

Gorina

 

[JPB2]

What cue ball did you use?

The Valley Cougar magnetic I’m pretty sure. Magnetic in any event.

The balls seemed to match. Played in a bar table tournament on diamonds last week with mismatched balls. No good. Diamonds were revolutionary in that you could use good balls. Why bother if you have horrendous balls. Also had a match on the Brunswick/ Globals recently. However the tables were the balls were terrible. Valley with decent matching relatively clean balls is better IMO.

 

[garczar]

How much $$$ money would the Ether have if it wasn't for a nearby horse track, like say, Los Alamitos? Man loved his ponies. Fun as hell to watch play pool.

 

[pt109]

The Valley Cougar magnetic I’m pretty sure. Magnetic in any event.

The balls seemed to match. Played in a bar table tournament on diamonds last week with mismatched balls. No good. Diamonds were revolutionary in that you could use good balls. Why bother if you have horrendous balls. Also had a match on the Brunswick/ Globals recently. However the tables were the balls were terrible. Valley with decent matching relatively clean balls is better IMO.

We have two Valleys in our room….but they’re open and on time….we got Aramith match balls on them ….a magnetic ball is verboten.
The weight is rarely centered…if you like to spin, it’ll drive you nuts. As a bar ball, I‘d rather play with the over-size cue ball, it was predictable.

 

[Z-Nole]

Fast Eddie's?
We have been in the same room at the same time then.

Yup. I was there with Ray Martin and the local guy who owns the room where I play down here. I was it town for work and came and saw the finals. Do you remember the shot JJ made to win it the one hole?

 

[Bavafongoul]

Interesting. Your preferences are different from mine. You’ve played way more of the CA courses, but I’ve played a few tough ones. The course that I enjoyed the most was Ballyneal shortly after they opened. No tee markers, no trees, no OB, no water, no cart paths. Presents difficulties and challenge, but allows freedom and some creativity. I haven’t played in Scotland or Ireland. I think I’d like a lot of those courses. Anyway, I think it highlights how people may prefer one style over another.

There is a course near me called Stevenson Ranch and it is a links course. Hardly a tree to be found and grass bunkers where your ball can get lost despite seeing it land in the bunker. And getting out of a grass bunker is no easy chore either. It make the ice plants on those Monterey courses look easy. It’s hard to mow a grass bunker so the grass is long. Without any trees on a golf course, your distance judgement seems to get all screwed up. Links courses can play a lot tougher than they look.

 

[jbart65]

Some good points. Do you know how the WPA events compare.

Hard to find WPA stuff as easily.

 

[markjames]

“IF I HAD A TIME MACHINE”
and i couldn’t put todays players
in the 500 BC javelin throw

i’d like to see a prime mosconi
play a prime mccready in 3000 AD

 

[trob]

The Valley Cougar magnetic I’m pretty sure. Magnetic in any event.

The balls seemed to match. Played in a bar table tournament on diamonds last week with mismatched balls. No good. Diamonds were revolutionary in that you could use good balls. Why bother if you have horrendous balls. Also had a match on the Brunswick/ Globals recently. However the tables were the balls were terrible. Valley with decent matching relatively clean balls is better IMO.

Valley magnet isn’t terrible.. tends to roll a little longer then a red circle but I can adjust

 

[Black-Balled]

Yup. I was there with Ray Martin and the local guy who owns the room where I play down here. I was it town for work and came and saw the finals. Do you remember the shot JJ made to win it the one hole?

Naw, I don't