Methods of Applying English

[Gregg]

Boy am I confused with the definitions so I just make some comments.

First of all I think the question was, what technique do you use to spin the ball.

I use several mathods depending on requirements. I clock the ball. 1:00,
2:00, 3:00 with perfect level stroke, with elevated butt, with diving tip, with rising tip for less swarp and straight lines off the OB, with swiping motion for max spin. I also clock the ball 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips from center choosing one or more of the other techniques mentioned above. There are so many things to talk about here.

I don't play much pool but when I watch good players they hardly ever use side spin unless they're in trouble. Position is acquired from speed control and cuing center ball (on the vertical axis thru the center). So I also think the question is how or what methods do I use to control the cue when side spin is needed. Different bridges also produce certain effects too. Grip position and style will also chang the applied english. Choke up for max spin. Rising tip with 7:00 or 5:00 will reduce draw but still put on a lot of spin. Arm stroke vs wrist for control.......
Anyway I'll stop here or it'll get out of hand.. Just wanted to throw in from strictly cue ball control vs pocketing balls. You guys pocket balls way better than I.

Although there is something to be said about a shooter who can use only center ball hits to gain position on most shots, the reality is that you will never be more than a mediocre player with out using side spin, in the words of Ray Martin's "99 Critical Shots" instructional book.

 

[raybo147]

Interesting post. I wondered how pool players aproached this. In snooker we move everything to the left or right (the whole body) and then compensate for the throw of the cue ball (snooker cues are high deflection). Since I started playing pool with a 314, I've found myself just adjusting from my center stance as the margin for error is so much higher. Not the best way to do it but it works with the huge pockets.

 

[Cornerman]

If I understand you correctly Fred, I highly disagree. You are telling me that most worldbeaters basically control how much the ball curves, and are basically slightly masse'ing on every shot? Then why are pros, and worldbeaters I might add, reluctant to shoot english with elevation unless absolutely forced to or deliberately masse'ing? Compensating for english by varying speed and elevation severely limits your shots; since on a given shot you are limited to a given speed. I would say the majority, if not all world beaters, use as little elevation as they can (on the vast majority of shots, if you are trying to make the ball come off the ob different there are few shots that require some elevation) and simply compensate for english by hitting the cb in a different spot.

Edited to say: I guess I can see how that would be the parallel method but I can't understand anyone who knows a thing about pool using it.

I have no idea what you're disagreeing with or why you think there's a disagreement. Did I say anything that created any kind of disagreement????

The original question was "methods of applying english." I was simply defining the term "parallel english," since it's now been used/described incorrectly several times (compared to the already existing definition).

That all being said, ignorance is bliss. Many top players don't know or care about squirt and swerve. They only know that if they hit it like this, the balls do that. And in their mind, they might think they're aiming with parallel english. I'm not saying anything about what actually happens, but simply how they think they're aiming.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Then why are pros, and worldbeaters I might add, reluctant to shoot english with elevation unless absolutely forced to or deliberately masse'ing?

They aren't reluctant. That's why they're world beaters.

I would say the majority, if not all world beaters, use as little elevation as they can

I go to tournaments with specific intentions to watch for elevation. Most professionals do not keep their cue as level as reasonably possible. I think anyone that actually went to watch top players with that specific intention would agree.

I hope it's understood that the difference between 10° elevation at a medium speed vs. 10° elevation at slow speed is a huge difference, in abolute terms. Nick Varner, for example, is elevated above 10° on every shot. So, yes, with english, any slow paced shot from Nick Varner will be affected by swerve.

But, again, this thread isn't about that.

Fred

 

[Chris]

I have no idea how you would make a shot with the parallel method then. how is it possible to make a shot with no compensation? Please don't answer by using a predator.

By placing bridge at the cue's pivot point, there is (in theory) no need to compensate for CB squirt.

 

[Andrew Manning]

By placing bridge at the cue's pivot point, there is (in theory) no need to compensate for CB squirt.

Well, the theory is that by rotating your cue to achieve the desired spin, you're changing the direction of aim, and so you're automatically compensating. I still don't trust it though; to me it feels like your cue is deciding where to shoot instead of your brain. I know a lot of good players use it, but it feels wrong to me.

-Andrew

 

[henho]

Fred, I may have misread your post; I thought you were saying that most world beaters use the parallel method as you have described. That I would have to disagree with.

I've been to plenty of tournaments, and yes, top players do not keep their cues consistently level. However, when they use English I believe they do make and attempt to keep the cue level and minimize swerve, and I have no reason to think otherwise from what I've seen. The main reason I see pros elevate for (besides the obvious, i.e. half masse's, jumps, close to the rail etc.) is to change the reaction of the cb off of the ob. In particular, if a player wishes to have a ball stun along the tangent line briefly before the english takes effect, they may hit down on the ball slightly. Other than that, I almost always see other pros keep the cue as level as possible when english is required, and particularly so when distance is involved.

That being said, there are plenty of players with quirks in their game that can shoot at top speed. I know that Varner elevates for practically every shot, but it is a flaw in his stroke that he has worked around, not a deliberate measure. He has even described how the method he uses to draw the ball is different from other pros because of his use of elevation. I would say that the majority of world beaters do not elevate their cues deliberately on shots with spin, and certainly don't compensate for english by regulating the amount of swerve except under unusual circumstances.

 

[Cornerman]

By placing bridge at the cue's pivot point, there is (in theory) no need to compensate for CB squirt.

You've mixed in two completely different theories. If you are going to use the cue's pivot point, then you will be compensating for cueball squirt.

Can you (Chris) describe what "putting the bridge at the cue's pivot point" means to you?

Fred <~~~ thinks everyone needs a refresher course on pivot points.

 

[Cornerman]

Fred, I may have misread your post; I thought you were saying that most world beaters use the parallel method as you have described. That I would have to disagree with.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that. What I did mean to say is that most people have no idea how they compensate or not compensate for english, and use what they think is the parallel shift method. That would include players who would be considered world beaters. The only way that it could possibly work is if the instinctively blend their speed and elevation. This is exactly what "they" do. And as I said, the post was about various english aiming methods, and I was simply re-defining "parallel english" for those that have apparently lost it's meaning.

Other than that, I almost always see other pros keep the cue as level as possible when english is required,

As I said, I've watched specifically for this (ever since this discussion came to the internet over 10 years ago), and I can't agree. Observation is just that. If you truly can tell me that you have gone to tournaments with the explicit plan to watch and report the elevation of professional players as I have in the past, then we're simply at an impasse.

know that Varner elevates for practically every shot, but it is a flaw in his stroke that he has worked around, not a deliberate measure. .

I've never liked this assessment. That's not a knock on you, but a knock on the internet and our industry. It's a little too standard common answer, with what I consider to have little backup. To consider what many pros and other top player do naturally as "a flaw" is, IMO, is short-sighted. We should all strive to find out why the things they do work, not waste effort on why they don't (since it's obvious that it does work.) But, that's just my opinion and isn't open for debate.

Fred

 

[Colin Colenso]

I use a combination, depending on the requirements of the shot and my own preference. Including parallel, BHE and sweeping on delivery, and perhaps even front hand english if you'd call it that, when I moved the bridge around on occaission until the shot feels right...though I don't do this systematically.

btw: Parallel English does work. The compensation is Spin Induced Throw.

To test this, place CB and OB 1" apart and align parallel with right english. The squirt over 1" is minimal, yet the spin induced throw is high, causing the OB to travel left of aim.

At a certain distance, around 8 to 12 inch separation of CB and OB the two effects are more or less equal.

So parallel english alignment method is quite practical for when the CB and OB are in the close range.

BHE I find much more useful when the CB and OB separation is 2 feet and more and the shot is medium to firm in speed, so that the bridge length length requirement is close to natural.

 

[Cornerman]

btw: Parallel English does work. The compensation is Spin Induced Throw.



At a certain distance, around 8 to 12 inch separation of CB and OB the two effects are more or less equal.

So parallel english alignment method is quite practical for when the CB and OB are in the close range.
.

Agreed. There is some magically close range (like 1/4") straight-in shot that it doesn't matter what kind of english you use, will make the ball.

Fred

 

[CaptainJR]

This post is about as good as it gets.

Fred

Thank you Fred.

I'll try to write a little more though I don't think I'll be able to explain this as well.

Of these methods I think using your front or bridge hand to create side spin has been over looked here for the most part and is probably one of the easier methods. Especially on shots that the cue ball isn't that far away from the object ball. If the cue ball is close to the object ball you don't have to compensate as much. So you can just move the front hand a little and stoke straight through as if your hand not moved. Even slightly longer distances between cue ball and object ball can be done this way if your not going to be hitting the shot very hard. It still takes a little 'feel', but at least your back hand is moving at or closer to the original center ball line.

 

[CaptainJR]

Using elevation and masse to compensate for deflection has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen or heard. I haven't watched enough pros to say what they do one way or the other. I do know this. The masse shot is one of the most difficult shots in pool. Anyone that puts masse on a shot just because they need a little spin is making a bad decision. Just because you have seen a pro do it, that doesn't mean it is right. I guess if you grew up doing it that way and nobody bothered to tell you any different, you might be able to get good at it. You certainly wouldn't teach anyone to create side spin this way.

 

[CaptainJR]

Center ball - Yup, that is what everyone wants. The problem is that most of us aren't good enough to get it often enough. We miss our position badly enough (which may or may not be by much, depending on the situation) that center ball won't get us what we need next. So we end up having to use spin. We have all had those games where we got a little out of line and then it just keeps getting worse. I think the main reason might be that we keep having to use more and more spin as we go through the shoots and the more spin you use the more likely you are to screw it up. There is a confliction of 'what is the best way to shoot' going on here though. Say you have a left cut shot to the corner and you need take the cue ball to the side rail and back toward you a little. Two main ways to do this. You can use a little draw and a little right english. Or if you want to avoid using english you can just use maybe a little more draw and hit the shot with more speed. (if you need a diagram to understand what I just said, ignore this post cause your not ready yet) The confliction is. Some people advocate that everyone shoots to hard. Others advocate use center ball. The problem is that moving the cue ball with a center ball hit requires more speed. Now beside everything else we need to think about we also have to decide what is more important between shooting softly or using center ball.

 

[CaptainJR]

I use a combination, depending on the requirements of the shot and my own preference. Including parallel, BHE and sweeping on delivery, and perhaps even front hand english if you'd call it that, when I moved the bridge around on occaission until the shot feels right...though I don't do this systematically.

btw: Parallel English does work. The compensation is Spin Induced Throw.

To test this, place CB and OB 1" apart and align parallel with right english. The squirt over 1" is minimal, yet the spin induced throw is high, causing the OB to travel left of aim.

At a certain distance, around 8 to 12 inch separation of CB and OB the two effects are more or less equal.

So parallel english alignment method is quite practical for when the CB and OB are in the close range.

BHE I find much more useful when the CB and OB separation is 2 feet and more and the shot is medium to firm in speed, so that the bridge length length requirement is close to natural.

Colin
Parallel english does not work at all on any shot at all. The deflection will take you to a different cut angle that throw can't overcome. If you think this is happening, your fooling yourself and your back hand is doing something that you don't realize it is doing.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Agreed. There is some magically close range (like 1/4") straight-in shot that it doesn't matter what kind of english you use, will make the ball.

Fred

Not trying to be a contrarian here Fred, but I think you're talking about another phenomenom above.

When the CB and OB, or 2 OB's are about 1/4 to 1/3 inch apart, the direction of travel of the first ball onto the second will send the second ball basically along the same path, regardless of direction. Useful to know for plants (combinations). But english still makes a significant difference of a couple of degrees at close separations.

The parallel english working range I am talking about is closer to 12 inches of separation. At this distance, the CB will squirt out perhaps 1mm from the parallel line. But the spin on the CB will turn the OB a couple of degrees, meaning there is a net zero effect.

Increase the speed of shot and the squirt will increase and the throw decrease, meaning parallel english will only work accurately at shorter distances at higher speed.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin
Parallel english does not work at all on any shot at all. The deflection will take you to a different cut angle that throw can't overcome. If you think this is happening, your fooling yourself and your back hand is doing something that you don't realize it is doing.

JR,
Try as I said and put 2 balls an inch apart and use parallel right english. The OB will travel left of the line. Throw exceeds squirt.

The try at 24 inches apart that the squirt will exceed the throw and the OB will travel right of the line,

Somewhere in the middle is the zone where parallel english works accurately.

If you can observe the first two points, then the 3rd point is apriori correct. No fooling

 

[CaptainJR]

JR,
Try as I said and put 2 balls an inch apart and use parallel right english. The OB will travel left of the line. Throw exceeds squirt.

The try at 24 inches apart that the squirt will exceed the throw and the OB will travel right of the line,

Somewhere in the middle is the zone where parallel english works accurately.

If you can observe the first two points, then the 3rd point is apriori correct. No fooling

All ready tried it. Maybe if you were only use 1/8 of a tip of english it might work, maybe. Or if the object ball was so close to the pocket that it didn't matter. If you think it is happening than you are not moving your back hand as far as your front hand and you just don't realize it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

All ready tried it. Maybe if you were only use 1/8 of a tip of english it might work, maybe. Or if the object ball was so close to the pocket that it didn't matter. If you think it is happening than you are not moving your back hand as far as your front hand and you just don't realize it.

Works with maximum english and with the ball travelling 8 feet to the pocket. The resultant line of the OB can be exactly the same.

Squirt works in the opposite direction as the throw.

It is common knowledge that when the CB is an inch from the OB right english will make the OB throw left. Over this inch, squirt is negligable.

The throw remains constant, but squirt increases as the distance between CB and OB increases. At some point they are exactly the same. By my extensive testing I found they cancel at around 12", but it depends on speed and amount of english.

 

[DelaWho???]

My Head Is Going To Explode.......

Ok I'm the new convert the "Banger" if you will (it's ok I don't mind) I have been working on my game seriously for about 6 months......a month and a half considering I felt like I was starting from scratch when I started playing with my I-2 shaft....

How do I find my cues pivot point? I know where the balance point is .......

A brief primer on English might be in order here as I just line up on the shot and adjust where I hit to apply whatever english I want......That's about as in depth as I can get.....

McCue Banger McCue