Mezz butts and mezz joints

[PoppaSaun]

Mezz has made thousands of cues and shafs with Wavy joint and it works fine. If it was too tight and splitting the shaft was a potential problem, Mezz wouldnt use it. I install all kinds of pins and the 8.0mm Mezz gives in the official installation guide works fine.
I have setups for all the common joint pins and matching gauge pins and reamers and know the difference between tight and too tight.

You apparently don't know what too tight is. I'll restate: Friction in the screw threads reduces clamp force at the joint face. Clamp force at the joint face is the only purpose of the joint screw.

Ipso facto, the mezz joint is too tight.

I never said anything about splitting shafts.

I don't care how many cues mezz has made. They have chosen to make joints in a poor fashion, either out of ignorance or not.

 

[Kim Bye]

You apparently don't know what too tight is. I'll restate: Friction in the screw threads reduces clamp force at the joint face. Clamp force at the joint face is the only purpose of the joint screw.

Ipso facto, the mezz joint is too tight.

I never said anything about splitting shafts.

I don't care how many cues mezz has made. They have chosen to make joints in a poor fashion, either out of ignorance or not.

Have you tried the wavy joint? Let me tell you that the joint face on shaft and butt meet just fine. So you are saying that you have more knowledge than Mezz, please provide your credentials...
As I said I thread shafts in all kinds of threads all the time, and I have never seen a problem with Wavy Joint, Radial, 3/8-10, 1/8-10M, 3/8-11 or any other thread, provided it`s done the right way.

 

[slide13]

The joint in a cue doesn't need to maximize the clamping force, that isn't really the goal. i think Mezz tried to maximized the contact area within their joint. You don't need to get them that tight, snug by hand is plenty good, so maximizing clamping force doesn't matter.

 

[PoppaSaun]

Have you tried the wavy joint? Let me tell you that the joint face on shaft and butt meet just fine. So you are saying that you have more knowledge than Mezz, please provide your credentials...
As I said I thread shafts in all kinds of threads all the time, and I have never seen a problem with Wavy Joint, Radial, 3/8-10, 1/8-10M, 3/8-11 or any other thread, provided it`s done the right way.

I design and build multi-million dollar cnc machines. I have years as a mechanical engineer. I've designed and built custom folding knives, pool cues, cases, hot rods, motorcycle frames....

I'm also not saying that I know more than mezz. But in this particular case, I know for a fact that a tight thread is inherently worse than a properly fitted, low-friction thread. End of story. It isn't even something that can be argued.

If, tho, you feel that it can be argued, why don't you and mezz tell me why that much friction, caused by improper fit, is better for a joint pin.

I've already told you why it is worse, but all you can come back with is that it doesn't split the shaft. The lack of that negative is not a positive.

 

[Kim Bye]

I design and build multi-million dollar cnc machines. I have years as a mechanical engineer. I've designed and built custom folding knives, pool cues, cases, hot rods, motorcycle frames....

I'm also not saying that I know more than mezz. But in this particular case, I know for a fact that a tight thread is inherently worse than a properly fitted, low-friction thread. End of story. It isn't even something that can be argued.

If, tho, you feel that it can be argued, why don't you and mezz tell me why that much friction, caused by improper fit, is better for a joint pin.

I've already told you why it is worse, but all you can come back with is that it doesn't split the shaft. The lack of that negative is not a positive.

I think we are talking past each other. Your concearns sounds to be of a theoretical nature. My point is that the snug joint works for it's intended purpose. I'm pretty sure Mezz has done their homework before releasing the Wavy Joint.
The one thing that sucks with Wavy Joint, is it's proprietary nature and that $500 tap!

 

[qbilder]

Im curious if u engineered n construct ur cue to hit like a mezz cue considering how much respect u have for em ?

Nope, not even a little bit. Nor did I with the other two makers I mentioned. In fact, one of the other two almost exclusively uses stainless steel joints with 5/16-14 pin, and traditional 4-point style.

 

[KJ Cues]

The joint in a cue doesn't need to maximize the clamping force, that isn't really the goal. i think Mezz tried to maximized the contact area within their joint. You don't need to get them that tight, snug by hand is plenty good, so maximizing clamping force doesn't matter.

You're welcome to your opinion but sadly it is incorrect.
Clamping force at the joint is paramount to a solid hit in a cue.
The greater the clamping force, the more the cue hits like a 1pc cue.

 

[qbilder]

Tight screw/thread engagement is a bad thing. All of the idiots who tout how tight the cue is screwing it together and how that is a sign of quality should really investigate how screws work.

The clamp force of the screw is what is important. The clamp force for a given screw diameter and torque is determined by the friction in the connection. Generally this friction is mostly on the two faces of contact. When the screw is tight in the threads, that will increase the friction forces and reduce the clamp force.

So, mezz invented a novelty screw profile and made a worse system. Kudos to the 'best' production cue.

A tight but smooth fitting pin all but completely alleviates the common unpredictability of how much the shaft will overhang one side or the other. The more slop in the joint, the further off center the shaft can lock down to the butt. The tighter the fit, given that all machining was done on center, the closer to center the shaft will come to rest. Simply put, it makes making the cue easier. Furthermore, it retains accuracy in a world where one guy barely tightens the cue and another guy cranks it like a wheel stud. The shaft comes to rest on center regardless of how tight or loose it is cranked down. Whether it's a tight pin fit or a compression fit on an insert, the concept is the same, to keep the shaft on center.

Given that Mezz makes thousands of cues and shafts, that single reason is huge. Buy a replacement shaft ten years down the road & it will fit center and flush just like the original. That's worth something.

 

[qbilder]

You're welcome to your opinion but sadly it is incorrect.
Clamping force at the joint is paramount to a solid hit in a cue.
The greater the clamping force, the more the cue hits like a 1pc cue.

If he's wrong then I am, too. Even your car engine has torque specs for each specific application. What torque spec do you assign to your cues? May I crank one of your cues so tightly that it tears itself apart? Or would just snugging it up suffice? If just snugging it up is fine, then apparently thread strength isn't all that critical, is it? Until you define what is tight enough and what is too tight, this conversation is pointless.

In my probably wrong opinion, once the two joint faces are secured, continuity is achieved. Tightening the cue any further will not enhance the hit or playability. It will only induce stress that if passes a certain threshold will destroy the cue. Just like with your car engine, once the head sufficiently compresses the gasket, continuity is achieved and it will operate optimally. Over tighten & you'll risk destroying the engine, with zero enhancement to performance. Point being, thread strength requirements are relative to application.

 

[Jimbojim]

Urgh, I just can't make my mind up about the joint I want. I currently have a custom cue, it has a radial pin with low deflection laminated shaft(they certainly are not as tight fit as it seems to be with mezz) but it doesn't quite have the hit I'm looking for.When I tried a friend's mezz in september (the MI-3) I was quite impressed so I just don't know if I loved it because of the United joint or because its a solid maple shaft (or both)?

 

[KJ Cues]

If he's wrong then I am, too. Even your car engine has torque specs for each specific application. What torque spec do you assign to your cues? May I crank one of your cues so tightly that it tears itself apart? Or would just snugging it up suffice? If just snugging it up is fine, then apparently thread strength isn't all that critical, is it? Until you define what is tight enough and what is too tight, this conversation is pointless.

In my probably wrong opinion, once the two joint faces are secured, continuity is achieved. Tightening the cue any further will not enhance the hit or playability. It will only induce stress that if passes a certain threshold will destroy the cue. Just like with your car engine, once the head sufficiently compresses the gasket, continuity is achieved and it will operate optimally. Over tighten & you'll risk destroying the engine, with zero enhancement to performance. Point being, thread strength requirements are relative to application.

You may be mixing apples and oranges with your analogy to torque specs of an engine.
When we connect a cue, we don't do it with the use of tools/wrenches.
With lug nuts/studs we're talking in excess of 100 lb/ft, head bolts, 150-175.
Cues are connected by hand. How much torque can you develop using your bare hands ?
Torque specs of a cue connection would be interesting to know but are almost irrelevant.
How tightly can the average player twist his cue ? Since we're both guessing,
I'm going to say 10-15 lbs,on a good day, maybe 20 with gloves. What's your guess ?
Can you really develop 100-150 lb/ft of torque with your hands If so, your propably the
only one on the planet that can do so, so why pull it into the conversation ? It's irrelevant.

You are certainly welcome to connect one of my cues and twist it (by hand) until it splits.
I'd luv to see it. The only caveat being that you'd also have to unscrew it
(without the use of tools), once you've realized that your efforts were in vain.
Seriously, I'd luv to see it if for nothing more than it's entertainment value.
I've never seen it happen, have you ? The offer stands, now take me up on it.
Would the average player actually attempt this in his usual connection routine ?

My point being, which pin/insert (if it has one) allows the greater compression at the faces.
The greater the compression at the jnt. faces, the firmer the hit and I'll stand by that also.

KJ

 

[Kim Bye]

Urgh, I just can't make my mind up about the joint I want. I currently have a custom cue, it has a radial pin with low deflection laminated shaft(they certainly are not as tight fit as it seems to be with mezz) but it doesn't quite have the hit I'm looking for.When I tried a friend's mezz in september (the MI-3) I was quite impressed so I just don't know if I loved it because of the United joint or because its a solid maple shaft (or both)?

Find the model that suits your taste and wallet, what joint it has is of minor importance. The MI3 comes with the Hybrid Alpha shaft, that's Mezz biggest diameter (12.8mm) and stiffest carbon cored shaft

 

[Kim Bye]

You may be mixing apples and oranges with your analogy to torque specs of an engine.
When we connect a cue, we don't do it with the use of tools/wrenches.
With lug nuts/studs we're talking in excess of 100 lb/ft, head bolts, 150-175.
Cues are connected by hand. How much torque can you develop using your bare hands ?
Torque specs of a cue connection would be interesting to know but are almost irrelevant.
How tightly can the average player twist his cue ? Since we're both guessing,
I'm going to say 10-15 lbs,on a good day, maybe 20 with gloves. What's your guess ?
Can you really develop 100-150 lb/ft of torque with your hands If so, your propably the
only one on the planet that can do so, so why pull it into the conversation ? It's irrelevant.

You are certainly welcome to connect one of my cues and twist it (by hand) until it splits.
I'd luv to see it. The only caveat being that you'd also have to unscrew it
(without the use of tools), once you've realized that your efforts were in vain.
Seriously, I'd luv to see it if for nothing more than it's entertainment value.
I've never seen it happen, have you ? The offer stands, now take me up on it.
Would the average player actually attempt this in his usual connection routine ?

My point being, which pin/insert (if it has one) allows the greater compression at the faces.
The greater the compression at the jnt. faces, the firmer the hit and I'll stand by that also.

KJ

Kinda off topic, but do you use 3/8-10M pin in all your cues and do you always use a phenolic insert in your shafts?

 

[KJ Cues]

3/8x10 std. V-thread and yes, pheno insert. A phenolic insert goes into every big-pin
Predator shaft that I build also unless the client requests otherwise and that's very rare.

 

[Kim Bye]

3/8x10 std. V-thread and yes, pheno insert. A phenolic insert goes into every big-pin
Predator shaft that I build also unless the client requests otherwise and that's very rare.

Thanks. Is there a thinking behind the phenolic inserts, other than durability?

 

[KJ Cues]

OK, I think you know who I work for, right ?
All Predator shafts made by Predator except partials have phenolic at the jnt. end.
Even the Uni-QR insert is set into phenolic. 3/8x10 and Radial built by Predator are
cut into phenolic. When a client orders a custom or modified Predator shaft and I do
the build, the client will get phenolic at the jnt. end unless otherwise specified.
I will admit that I do it a little differently but I also believe that I make a stronger
joint for the client. My work is guaranteed and warranted by Predator.

I'd like to add some clarity to my previous post and that is, Predator Co. doesn't
accommodate all threads, ie, I don't do a phenolic insert for a Bludworth (.346x11.5)
unless the client requests it. No one has because Leonard didn't do it, he did wood.
There are a few other exceptions. I try to follow Pred's lead and give the client
what he expects.

There are many advantages to a phenolic jnt. end, not the least of which is durability
and longevity. You've got to be doing something really wrong to strip the threads in a
phenolic insert. I don't think you could.
On the flip-side with wood, you have to very careful not to.
Another reason and it's why I use a phenolic insert in my own builds, is that you can
'cinch' the shaft connection just a little bit tighter thereby improving the hit.
That debate will continue but not by me because I already know.

 

[Blue]

There's zero doubt in my mind that Mezz makes the absolute best production cue ever produced anywhere by anyone. Every one I have hit with, which is a bunch, hit & felt like somebody who knows how to play pool crafted it to play pool. I don't know how else to describe it, and it's something missing in the vast majority of production cues I have hit balls with. As for the joint, use whichever one you prefer. I don't think there's much difference so long as the shaft is locked solid to the butt.

Hi hi

May I ask which mezz shaft do you feel is the better mezz shaft in your opinion?

I have played with their hp2 and wd700 and the normal maple shaft, but i keep going back to the maple shaft.

 

[Kim Bye]

OK, I think you know who I work for, right ?
All Predator shafts made by Predator except partials have phenolic at the jnt. end.
Even the Uni-QR insert is set into phenolic. 3/8x10 and Radial built by Predator are
cut into phenolic. When a client orders a custom or modified Predator shaft and I do
the build, the client will get phenolic at the jnt. end unless otherwise specified.
I will admit that I do it a little differently but I also believe that I make a stronger
joint for the client. My work is guaranteed and warranted by Predator.

I'd like to add some clarity to my previous post and that is, Predator Co. doesn't
accommodate all threads, ie, I don't do a phenolic insert for a Bludworth (.346x11.5)
unless the client requests it. No one has because Leonard didn't do it, he did wood.
There are a few other exceptions. I try to follow Pred's lead and give the client
what he expects.

There are many advantages to a phenolic jnt. end, not the least of which is durability
and longevity. You've got to be doing something really wrong to strip the threads in a
phenolic insert. I don't think you could.
On the flip-side with wood, you have to very careful not to.
Another reason and it's why I use a phenolic insert in my own builds, is that you can
'cinch' the shaft connection just a little bit tighter thereby improving the hit.
That debate will continue but not by me because I already know.

Thanks for the answer KJ

 

[Jimbojim]

I ended up ordering the Axi-155.

 

[qbilder]

You may be mixing apples and oranges with your analogy to torque specs of an engine.
When we connect a cue, we don't do it with the use of tools/wrenches.
With lug nuts/studs we're talking in excess of 100 lb/ft, head bolts, 150-175.
Cues are connected by hand. How much torque can you develop using your bare hands ?
Torque specs of a cue connection would be interesting to know but are almost irrelevant.
How tightly can the average player twist his cue ? Since we're both guessing,
I'm going to say 10-15 lbs,on a good day, maybe 20 with gloves. What's your guess ?
Can you really develop 100-150 lb/ft of torque with your hands If so, your propably the
only one on the planet that can do so, so why pull it into the conversation ? It's irrelevant.

You are certainly welcome to connect one of my cues and twist it (by hand) until it splits.
I'd luv to see it. The only caveat being that you'd also have to unscrew it
(without the use of tools), once you've realized that your efforts were in vain.
Seriously, I'd luv to see it if for nothing more than it's entertainment value.
I've never seen it happen, have you ? The offer stands, now take me up on it.
Would the average player actually attempt this in his usual connection routine ?

My point being, which pin/insert (if it has one) allows the greater compression at the faces.
The greater the compression at the jnt. faces, the firmer the hit and I'll stand by that also.

KJ

Are you seriously going to argue that I cannot over tighten a cue to the point of failure, while at the same time argue that a cue with tight pin won't hit as well because the player cannot tighten it enough? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? Yet here you are making that case, and "standing by it". I mixed no apples with oranges. I knew exactly what I was saying & said it clear. In your eagerness to one up and exhibit your superior cue knowledge, you completely missed what I was saying and the reason I was saying it.

There's zero need for the condescension and insults. It is possible to discuss a difference of opinion without having to be an ass.