Mike Massey on extreme draw

[Nekdo]

Droping elbow or not is not the issue in this case.Look at his grip and you`ll know where the back spin comes from.On the other hand, this table is super fast.When the CB is passing the middle of the table it just don`t stop rolling.Not a tough shot on a fast table.I was more impressed with Deul draw in one of his 9ball matches.It was linked on this forum also.That was INSANE

 

[3kushn]

Droping elbow or not is not the issue in this case.Look at his grip and you`ll know where the back spin comes from.On the other hand, this table is super fast.When the CB is passing the middle of the table it just don`t stop rolling.Not a tough shot on a fast table.I was more impressed with Deul draw in one of his 9ball matches.It was linked on this forum also.That was INSANE

I'll bet you he could bring the CB back again for a 3rd rail but the shot was to get position to run out not to show us his maximum draw.

 

[mikepage]

[...] lets play some sets and see how valuable what you know that I don't know is

Sigh...

You don't flatter yourself with these kinds of challenges. If you disagree with something Scott or anybody else says, then by all means present your evidence and/or your reasoning and defend what you say. There's nothing wrong with that; this is a discussion forum. The ad hominem jabs really are not helpful.

What benefit do you see on a draw shot of the cue accelerating at the point of impact?

 

[TATE]

Of course it is You would be out of business if you admitted it

Lets play some, some time. I'll teach you how to open your wallet. Tell ya what, for a spot, I'll do this -

I'll jump up at least one shot per rack.

drop my elbow more often then not.

won't bother lining up at all.

I'll go Luc Salvas style and forget a PST and just speed through the racks.

I'll change my body position and shuffle my feet around while down on a shot.

I may determine a new strategy for position while I am down on a shot without ever standing up and resetting.


Seriously, if we are ever in the same spot, at the same time, lets play some sets and see how valuable what you know that I don't know is

I understand you got heated because of his abrupt response. I just want to comment on the concept you are presented which brought it on.

You can't tell a person their career is pointless without some response. What's more, you are doing other pool players a disservice by stating this. Do you think there are any fundamentals in pool worthy of instruction? Just as Mike Massey thought he was dropping his elbow - look at the tape - he doesn't.

Scott has taught thousands of players. You are completly dismissing years of experience and his hundreds of hours of study and hard work.

What did you expect?

I've taken a couple of lessons from Scott, and I'm the most stubborn, obnoxious student he could ask for. I dismiss every one of his notions to his face, then I go to the practice table and guess what? I try them and I get better. That's his job.

Chris

 

[catscradle]

I'll bet you he could bring the CB back again for a 3rd rail but the shot was to get position to run out not to show us his maximum draw.

I bet he could too, Massey has incredible drawing capabilities.

 

[Andrew Manning]

He doesn't drop his elbow. Here's a screen shot after impact - the cueball is a few diamonds down table, and his elbow is still pinned and his cue is bent into the cloth. It drops afterward as a result of his momentum - which is enormous. The important stuff all occurs up to impact. You could do a back flip after the ball's gone and it won't affect the shot.

Chris

Winner winner! The screen shot really tells the whole story here. Massey has a text-book stroke, up to a text-book finish pictured in TATE's post, but he swings his arm so hard he needs to sort of "release" his form after the ball's gone to give his arm and the cue time to come to a full stop.

I think if he brought his stroke to a full stop (freeze) in the position pictured, he'd have no elbow drop, but it'd be a struggle to check all that momentum, and might even hurt after a lot of repititions. Also, because he's using elevation, I think he'd grind his cue into the table much harder than he'd like if he didn't drop his elbow in the end.

-Andrew

 

[John Barton]

Droping elbow or not is not the issue in this case.Look at his grip and you`ll know where the back spin comes from.On the other hand, this table is super fast.When the CB is passing the middle of the table it just don`t stop rolling.Not a tough shot on a fast table.I was more impressed with Deul draw in one of his 9ball matches.It was linked on this forum also.That was INSANE

I don't know if the table was fast or not - have not watched the video - but I do know Mike personally and have been around him many many many times.

The man has a stroke that has few equals on planet Earth. Fast cloth, slow cloth, sand, Mike can move his rock in more ways than most people can even dream of.

I have seen Mike just clowning around playing with shots that boggle the mind. I don't know HOW he does it but he gets some wicked juice on the ball.

Ask Jamison Neu, our very own artistic champion, and he will tell you the same thing. And Jamison can juice up the ball pretty sporty as well.

Corey doesn't want any piece of Massey in a stroke contest.

 

[John Barton]

Winner winner! The screen shot really tells the whole story here. Massey has a text-book stroke, up to a text-book finish pictured in TATE's post, but he swings his arm so hard he needs to sort of "release" his form after the ball's gone to give his arm and the cue time to come to a full stop.

I think if he brought his stroke to a full stop (freeze) in the position pictured, he'd have no elbow drop, but it'd be a struggle to check all that momentum, and might even hurt after a lot of repititions. Also, because he's using elevation, I think he'd grind his cue into the table much harder than he'd like if he didn't drop his elbow in the end.

-Andrew

Right on. The "elbow drop" is also not really a drop. It is the natural mechanics of a full follow through.

I think what instructors, or at least I have, identified as "elbow drop" that affects the shot negatively is the actually a shoulder drop.

When I teach people to jump this comes up all the time that they are throwing their shoulder into the the shot and thus forcing the cue to go off the correct line. In a shot where one wants to apply draw this has the effect of raising the tip before the tip reaches the ball and so the tip makes contact higher than intended. This negates any wanted backspin or severely shortens it.

For a shot like Mike's the momentum is what causes the normal mechanics of the elbow ending up in a lower position. Tate is correct that the ball is long gone.

Buzzy Harris, a name few might know, used to tell me that it's RPMs that make these shots. The more RPMS the balls the has at contact then the more it will do after contact. I have worked on his advice for 20 years and I still can't get the ball revved like he could. At least not twice in a row.

 

[unknownpro]

I have to stick up for CaptiveBred. All you that say Mike's elbow isn't dropping apparently don't see it rise on the backswing either??? The elbow rises first then drops and the drop is checked by the cueball. I have yet to see anyone playing without dropping the elbow. Don't tell me Tony Robles because on that video that was posted he drops his elbow a foot on the first break.

unknownpro

 

[CaptiveBred]

I understand you got heated because of his abrupt response. I just want to comment on the concept you are presented which brought it on.

You can't tell a person their career is pointless without some response. What's more, you are doing other pool players a disservice by stating this. Do you think there are any fundamentals in pool worthy of instruction? Just as Mike Massey thought he was dropping his elbow - look at the tape - he doesn't.

Scott has taught thousands of players. You are completly dismissing years of experience and his hundreds of hours of study and hard work.

What did you expect?

I've taken a couple of lessons from Scott, and I'm the most stubborn, obnoxious student he could ask for. I dismiss every one of his notions to his face, then I go to the practice table and guess what? I try them and I get better. That's his job.

Chris

i specifically said I would not give it a "third" thought... I would definitely give any pool advice a second thought from anybody... All I'm saying is the "perfect stroke" is, absolutley, not the most important thing to play high level pool...

Look at the huge numbers of world class players who have hidious techniques but playso strong you would be a fool to tell them to change. Its real obvious that there are much more valuable things about our game than everybody stroking the same... At least to me it is...

Instructors seem to be stuck on fundamentals... It makes me crazy... I think all of my major breakthroughs, epiphanies, and all major jumps in level of play have been attributed to something other than mechanics... I have reached a pretty high level of play. Especially in the last year. i can run a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now. I know what it took me to get here. It was not stroke, stance, PST or any of that other robotic motions... Its knowledge and experience...


And, I said it hard to teach pool and i would have to do the same thing if I did /shrug teaching pool, for a job, must be a rough life...

 

[Snoogi]

I have to stick up for CaptiveBred. All you that say Mike's elbow isn't dropping apparently don't see it rise on the backswing either??? The elbow rises first then drops and the drop is checked by the cueball. I have yet to see anyone playing without dropping the elbow. Don't tell me Tony Robles because on that video that was posted he drops his elbow a foot on the first break.

unknownpro

This is an extreme draw stroke..not the average stroke we use most of the time (moderate acceleration)..we can achieve a normal stroke without elbow drop at all, but the tip will dive into the cloth..and the slight elbow drop compensates for it..we feel more natural. Well, mother nature's fault for creating our arms with such limitations..

 

[Snoogi]

i specifically said I would not give it a "third" thought... I would definitely give any pool advice a second thought from anybody... All I'm saying is the "perfect stroke" is, absolutley, not the most important thing to play high level pool...

Look at the huge numbers of world class players who have hidious techniques but playso strong you would be a fool to tell them to change. Its real obvious that there are much more valuable things about our game than everybody stroking the same... At least to me it is...

Instructors seem to be stuck on fundamentals... It makes me crazy... I think all of my major breakthroughs, epiphanies, and all major jumps in level of play have been attributed to something other than mechanics... I have reached a pretty high level of play. Especially in the last year. i can run a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now. I know what it took me to get here. It was not stroke, stance, PST or any of that other robotic motions... Its knowledge and experience...


And, I said it hard to teach pool and i would have to do the same thing if I did /shrug teaching pool, for a job, must be a rough life...

With utmost respect, I think that's pretty powerful for the average player..

However, frankly speaking I think if it's not stroke stance etc..(I mean stroke better), just base on knowledge alone (experience-that's hands on), you can't breakthrough..or run packs..JMO.

 

[John Barton]

I have to stick up for CaptiveBred. All you that say Mike's elbow isn't dropping apparently don't see it rise on the backswing either??? The elbow rises first then drops and the drop is checked by the cueball. I have yet to see anyone playing without dropping the elbow. Don't tell me Tony Robles because on that video that was posted he drops his elbow a foot on the first break.

unknownpro

Well if it rises then it must come down. Again this is normal mechanics and I think illustrates how we tend to mix our terminology.

Mike is not dropping his elbow consciously. It is happening that the gear is following the path of momentum because it is connected to the impetus.

A premature elbow (or shoulder) drop will result in unintended consequences. A lunge forward or standing up will cause the tip to strike the ball in a different spot than intended.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, just trying to clear up the terms since I think we are talking about two different things.

 

[John Barton]

i specifically said I would not give it a "third" thought... I would definitely give any pool advice a second thought from anybody... All I'm saying is the "perfect stroke" is, absolutley, not the most important thing to play high level pool...

Look at the huge numbers of world class players who have hidious techniques but playso strong you would be a fool to tell them to change. Its real obvious that there are much more valuable things about our game than everybody stroking the same... At least to me it is...

Instructors seem to be stuck on fundamentals... It makes me crazy... I think all of my major breakthroughs, epiphanies, and all major jumps in level of play have been attributed to something other than mechanics... I have reached a pretty high level of play. Especially in the last year. i can run a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now. I know what it took me to get here. It was not stroke, stance, PST or any of that other robotic motions... Its knowledge and experience...


And, I said it hard to teach pool and i would have to do the same thing if I did /shrug teaching pool, for a job, must be a rough life...

Mechanics are what got you to the point to have epiphanies. You can hit a million balls but IF you are hitting them wrong, not lining up right, not aiming right, dipping your shoulder, etc... then you WILL not be as consistent as you can be. I can also run 2 to 3 racks consistently and have run 5 a couple times.

Still I know that I could do more IF my fundamentals were more consistent. I get my ass beat by people who do the same things every time. Whether they have a crazy stroke or a textbook one it is the SAME every time and this is what fundamentals and foundations are.

I guarantee you that knowledge and experience do not make you a player unless combined with strong fundamentals. You didn't just step into the pool room and start running racks. At some point you worked on your stroke, your stance, your aiming. And you did this because you HAD to. No player gets around those things if they want to be really good. Now of course some people are more natural than others but no one gets great without adjusting something at some point.

Whether you believe it or not good instructors can find things to bring your game up. I had a good road player coach me for a while and my game jumped two balls. The biggest thing he corrected? My aiming. And I guarantee you that before I started working with him I wasn't a pushover as a player.

I think Tate posted a video of himself beating the ghost on a tight table. So he is obviously a good player and when a good player admits that he can learn from a good instructor then I listen.

Champions are born rough and then sculpted to masterpieces.

 

[Snoogi]

Mechanics are what got you to the point to have epiphanies. You can hit a million balls but IF you are hitting them wrong, not lining up right, not aiming right, dipping your shoulder, etc... then you WILL not be as consistent as you can be. I can also run 2 to 3 racks consistently and have run 5 a couple times.

Still I know that I could do more IF my fundamentals were more consistent. I get my ass beat by people who do the same things every time. Whether they have a crazy stroke or a textbook one it is the SAME every time and this is what fundamentals and foundations are.

I guarantee you that knowledge and experience do not make you a player unless combined with strong fundamentals. You didn't just step into the pool room and start running racks. At some point you worked on your stroke, your stance, your aiming. And you did this because you HAD to. No player gets around those things if they want to be really good. Now of course some people are more natural than others but no one gets great without adjusting something at some point.

Whether you believe it or not good instructors can find things to bring your game up. I had a good road player coach me for a while and my game jumped two balls. The biggest thing he corrected? My aiming. And I guarantee you that before I started working with him I wasn't a pushover as a player.

I think Tate posted a video of himself beating the ghost on a tight table. So he is obviously a good player and when a good player admits that he can learn from a good instructor then I listen.

Champions are born rough and then sculpted to masterpieces.

Not sure if it's just me but I read "a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now"..let's be modest multiply by just two times that's anything between 4-6 packs daily or more..somehow something tells me that's near superstar level..

Or maybe he could've made a typo error..

 

[John Barton]

Not sure if it's just me but I read "a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now"..let's be modest multiply by just two times that's anything between 4-6 packs daily or more..somehow something tells me that's near superstar level..

Or maybe he could've made a typo error..

You can't multiply it by a factor of two.

The difference between running 2&3 packs and running 5&6 packs is tremendous. There are tens of thousands of players worldwide who can run 2&3 packs fairly consistently. There are only a few thousand, if that many, players in the world who can run five packs consistently.

I can't tell you how many people in my circle of friends think I should be a pro just because I can run a rack. Even my Filipino friends seem to think I could hang with Efren. It's ridiculous.

I don't care how good someone thinks they are, there is always someone better.

When you start figuring things out in pool it's awesome. I remember well most of my milestones in pool and how great it felt. I also remember the plateaus where I worked hard on my basics. From Rafael Martinez and Danny Medina I learned a lot about stroke that isn't taught in books. I would never have gotten that by the million ball method because what they taught me isn't something you just figure out, instead it takes the combined experience of many players to "figure it out" and pass it on.

So it's really unfair to disrespect instructors just because you are hitting on all cylinders at the moment. I guarantee you that every player on Earth still has something to learn and also has something to teach.

 

[CaptiveBred]

Mechanics are what got you to the point to have epiphanies. Not really, for me... I spent a good 3years focused on mechanics when I should have been focused on aiming and the physics involved that require aim corrections. Knowledge of what is going on with the balls is FAR, FAR, FAR more valuable that perfect mechanics... You can still get out if you can pocket balls from anywhere (not that I can )

After I studied every concept about fundamentals I could find, I finally realized that I need to do what works naturally for me and not worry if I am not doing something "textbook". Dropping shoulder works very well for so I do it. I am no Mike Massey but I know how to get the CB to anywhere on the table from, virtually, anywhere with my stroke. I even hold the cue lightly against my chest when I stroke (most of the time) cause it ensures its straight. Most instructors would tell me to fix that right away... but I do it on puropose... its not a flaw for my game...

Yes, understanding mechanics was very important to my game but not even close to the most important aspects of the game, IMO. i do not attribute a 4 pack (my highest on a 9') to my mechanics. i would give that credit to knowledge. And i could do it using many different strokes, stances, PSTs, head positions, etc... There are many ways to hit a ball great. Look at Kieth Mcready, for example...

...not lining up right... I know some people who swear by this. Its not very important to me. I get down and just move my body over a bit till I am in line. Even then I may move my hands a bit... This is a game of millimeters, for aiming, and its kind of foolish to think you can get EXACTLY where you need to be by lining up from an upright position... Maybe you do not mean this but most do and especially instructors...

not aiming right...You are 110% correct here. Its the most important part of the game. If you can't pocket balls, you will never win unless you are a master of 3 foul


Still I know that I could do more IF my fundamentals were more consistent. I am at the mental game myself. That is my number one priorty for improvement. Maybe someday I'll look back on fundamentals but for now, its not at the front of the line... I'll get the most out of my time by focusing on my biggest weakness...

Whether they have a crazy stroke or a textbook one it is the SAME every time... I agree, sort of... Meaning, if you know more than one way to shoot the shot, you can do it differently... Hence my proposition to Scott Lee... i can still play very well doing things the wrong way cause I learned how somewhere...

...At some point you worked on your stroke, your stance, your aiming. And you did this because you HAD to. No player gets around those things if they want to be really good.... Very true but my point is - "text book" is not needed. And some of it can be ignored. Like stance. I can make my shots on one foot, cross legged, or just about any other configuration. When people enphasize stance like you ABSOLUTELY have to do it a certain way, well, its kind of silly... its not that important...

Whether you believe it or not good instructors can find things to bring your game up. I already stated I would listen to anybody when it comes to pool. I have every video and book produced (well, just about). I look for information anywhere I can get it. Thats why I troll/lurk these forums... I just don't entertin ideas that are overrated... I have spent plenty of time researching and practicing to have an idea on how important a certain aspect really is... Too bad people selling lessons don't have their students focus on more important things /shrug

Not even sure what I am talking about anymore... I think it was about dropping shoulders lol Everybody can go about their business and ignore this post

 

[CaptiveBred]

Not sure if it's just me but I read "a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now"..let's be modest multiply by just two times that's anything between 4-6 packs daily or more..somehow something tells me that's near superstar level..

Or maybe he could've made a typo error..

Like already stated. There is a huge difference between3 and 5. 2 or 3 is pretty easy to get if you break well and know what shot to take. Getting 5takes some real skill and some luck. But you must have some exceptional shotmaking, position, and breakout skills to get to 5. Not to mention superior decision making...

No typo from me. I can 2s and 3s several times a day if play for a good while. Its not that impressive... Its all in the break. i have never done 5 on a 9'. A handfull of 4s but my top game is at the 3 pack speed and not a ball more. 4 pack, for me, requires luck maybe someday I'll get to 4s but I doubt it. I just don't have the skill to get the rolls needed... This game is just too damn hard to run out from anywhere :0

 

[Craig Fales]

He doesn't drop his elbow. Here's a screen shot after impact - the cueball is a few diamonds down table, and his elbow is still pinned and his cue is bent into the cloth. It drops afterward as a result of his momentum - which is enormous. The important stuff all occurs up to impact. You could do a back flip after the ball's gone and it won't affect the shot.

Chris

He used a kinda snap-like stroke on that shot...and his elbow did drop about 2 ~ 3 inches then came back up...

 

[catscradle]

i specifically said I would not give it a "third" thought... I would definitely give any pool advice a second thought from anybody... All I'm saying is the "perfect stroke" is, absolutley, not the most important thing to play high level pool...

Look at the huge numbers of world class players who have hidious techniques but playso strong you would be a fool to tell them to change. Its real obvious that there are much more valuable things about our game than everybody stroking the same... At least to me it is...

Instructors seem to be stuck on fundamentals... It makes me crazy... I think all of my major breakthroughs, epiphanies, and all major jumps in level of play have been attributed to something other than mechanics... I have reached a pretty high level of play. Especially in the last year. i can run a few 2 and 3 packs on a daily basis now. I know what it took me to get here. It was not stroke, stance, PST or any of that other robotic motions... Its knowledge and experience...


And, I said it hard to teach pool and i would have to do the same thing if I did /shrug teaching pool, for a job, must be a rough life...

You over look the fact that most instructors are dealing not with people like Keith McCready who learn to play the "wrong" way and are extraordinary players nonetheless, but with regular guys just trying to get better. A person can play not only good but great pool with lousy fundamentals and form that looks horrid, but most people will play lousy with bad fundamentals and bad form. It is these people that instructors deal with and HELP tremendously. I'm a guy who only played once or twice a year until my kids were grown and on their own. When I started playing regularly I was okay, but nevertheless a hacker. My game is respectable now, and besides a lot of reading and hard work on my part, people like Randy G. and Scott Lee have helped me tremondously. I'm 61 and 6 years ago I know only wasn't even a "D" player, but had never even heard the term; now I'd say I'm maybe a strong "C" player, instructors and learning correct fundamentals were key in that transformation. There were also instructors I dealt with along the way who weren't worth the powder to blow them to hell, but that doesn't negate the value of a good instructor.