Mike Massey on extreme draw

[PKM]

Some of you may have seen this already, but I came across this video that might be of interest. Nice slow-mo shot at the end

And MASSIVE elbow drop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI1Q-8nfiBk

My related question: I know some instructors would argue the elbow drop is not necessary, but what about using a slightly elevated cue for extreme draw shots? If there is a place for it, how "extreme" do you think the shot needs to be before you'd do it?

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

or not

go back and watch again, at 1:36 you'll see Mike's "full follow through"
is only 4-5". (AND he uses the cowboy draw stroke)

based on everything prior to the slow mo clip, the lasso effect is
more useful than the elbow drop follow through.

-cOOp

 

[Snoogi]

Dunno if it's my eyes but his follow through is only a few inches..it's the cue speed..and no need bend so low..

 

[bruin70]

Some of you may have seen this already, but I came across this video that might be of interest. Nice slow-mo shot at the end

And MASSIVE elbow drop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI1Q-8nfiBk

My related question: I know some instructors would argue the elbow drop is not necessary, but what about using a slightly elevated cue for extreme draw shots? If there is a place for it, how "extreme" do you think the shot needs to be before you'd do it?

almost every player i know drops his elbow, however i think the main reason teachers advocate a locked elbow is because they're teaching newbies,,,and with newbies they have to be shown the big picture and how mechanics all work together. the elbow drop isn't "necessary" all the time...there are lots of shots, both short and soft, that don't require all that movement. why create a big movement to move the cb 1', for instance.

however in a BIG STROKE SHOT, if you don't drop that elbow the tip will dive into the slate because with a locked elbow the pendulum swing is going up and concomitantly the cue tip goes down,,,,, and you'll miscue or jump the shot. the drop levels out the cue. massey explains the whole thing. friend of mine was showing off his new big draw stroke and said the key was "scooping the stroke",,,,as he dropped his elbow he tried to create a scoop effect. i watched from the side and told him all the cue was doing was leveling out.....he was surpised as he was SURE he was raising the tip with his "scoop".

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...in a BIG STROKE SHOT, if you don't drop that elbow the tip will dive into the slate because with a locked elbow the pendulum swing is going up and concomitantly the cue tip goes down,,,,, and you'll miscue or jump the shot.

If you set up correctly, so the tip is at the cue ball when your forearm is vertical, then all the tip dropping happens AFTER contact with the cue ball.

pj
chgo

 

[CaptiveBred]

I would not give a third thought to an instructor telling me not to drop my elbow... Everybody does it... Why? Cause its more natural...

Instructors have very little to sell since teaching pool is very hard. Its not like a math instructor who sells 3+3=6. Our game is applied knowledge and mostly experience... You can't teach experience so the teachers have to come up with some product to sell... They all seem to chose perfect mechanics as their premier product to sell... I guess i'd have to do the same... I don't blame them /shrug

Same goes for follow through... To get good backspin, all you need to do is accelerate through the ball. The CB leaves the tip of your cue so fast it does not really matter if you go a foot or 4 inches... Good follow through is just a good practice to ensure you hit the ball the same everytime I guess...


Next time an instructor tells you not to drop your elbow, ask them to play some If they drop their elbow its a foul and you can drop yours You'll rob em

 

[Snoogi]

The early stage of my lessons, my coach mentioned that after sometime when I've seasoned out, a slight drop in elbow is ok and perfectly normal. We touched on a simple demo where he placed his hand on my elbow, after SPFF, my elbow inevitably lowered itself..and I feel that it's quite impossible to not drop elbow at all more or less..naturally of course. If a player can clean the table deep screw the balls, it doesn't really matter if he/she drops elbow.

I think for beginners it's all about the standard basics and mechanisms, thereafter upon maturity when he/she becomes more seasoned and experienced, then by all means drop elbow..develop individual style..american fencing..

Just my personal experience..

 

[ShootingArts]

accelerating through the cue ball

Attempting to accelerate through the cue ball gives the result sought. If you can feel when the stick hits the cue ball it didn't accelerate smoothly through it. In reality, if you can feel the hit the stick didn't accelerate through the cue ball at all.

There is a big long thread on this right now that I have to admit I totally skipped. Either the thread agrees with the empirical evidence or what is said is wrong. It doesn't really matter since the attempt to accelerate or even simply maintain speed is what counts. When we try to check early we often bring opposing muscles into play before the cue ball is contacted and we increase the potential of missing our shot.

Hu

I would not give a third thought to an instructor telling me not to drop my elbow... Everybody does it... Why? Cause its more natural...

Instructors have very little to sell since teaching pool is very hard. Its not like a math instructor who sells 3+3=6. Our game is applied knowledge and mostly experience... You can't teach experience so the teachers have to come up with some product to sell... They all seem to chose perfect mechanics as their premier product to sell... I guess i'd have to do the same... I don't blame them /shrug

Same goes for follow through... To get good backspin, all you need to do is accelerate through the ball. The CB leaves the tip of your cue so fast it does not really matter if you go a foot or 4 inches... Good follow through is just a good practice to ensure you hit the ball the same everytime I guess...


Next time an instructor tells you not to drop your elbow, ask them to play some If they drop their elbow its a foul and you can drop yours You'll rob em

 

[Scott Lee]

To get good backspin, all you need to do is accelerate through the ball. The CB leaves the tip of your cue so fast it does not really matter if you go a foot or 4 inches...

Good follow through is just a good practice to ensure you hit the ball the same everytime I guess...

First part...absolutely true. Second part...followthrough is not something you cause; it is the RESULT of a good finish...no elbow drop is required to apply a power stroke.

The rest of your post, imo, is complete b.s.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JohnnyP]

Looks like a small table.

 

[CaptiveBred]

The rest of your post, imo, is complete b.s.

Scott Lee

Of course it is You would be out of business if you admitted it

Lets play some, some time. I'll teach you how to open your wallet. Tell ya what, for a spot, I'll do this -

I'll jump up at least one shot per rack.

drop my elbow more often then not.

won't bother lining up at all.

I'll go Luc Salvas style and forget a PST and just speed through the racks.

I'll change my body position and shuffle my feet around while down on a shot.

I may determine a new strategy for position while I am down on a shot without ever standing up and resetting.


Seriously, if we are ever in the same spot, at the same time, lets play some sets and see how valuable what you know that I don't know is

 

[uwate]

of course he could have just stopped and then played a nice safe, sticking whitey up against the 8 and driving the 5 out of there. Thats not as interesting but it sure has as good of results in the long run as than trying that king kong draw shot.

 

[TATE]

Some of you may have seen this already, but I came across this video that might be of interest. Nice slow-mo shot at the end

And MASSIVE elbow drop!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI1Q-8nfiBk

My related question: I know some instructors would argue the elbow drop is not necessary, but what about using a slightly elevated cue for extreme draw shots? If there is a place for it, how "extreme" do you think the shot needs to be before you'd do it?

He doesn't drop his elbow. Here's a screen shot after impact - the cueball is a few diamonds down table, and his elbow is still pinned and his cue is bent into the cloth. It drops afterward as a result of his momentum - which is enormous. The important stuff all occurs up to impact. You could do a back flip after the ball's gone and it won't affect the shot.

Chris

 

[Snoogi]

To get good backspin, all you need to do is accelerate through the ball. The CB leaves the tip of your cue so fast it does not really matter if you go a foot or 4 inches...

Good follow through is just a good practice to ensure you hit the ball the same everytime I guess...

First part...absolutely true. Second part...followthrough is not something you cause; it is the RESULT of a good finish...no elbow drop is required to apply a power stroke.

The rest of your post, imo, is complete b.s.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Of course it is You would be out of business if you admitted it

Lets play some, some time. I'll teach you how to open your wallet. Tell ya what, for a spot, I'll do this -

I'll jump up at least one shot per rack.

drop my elbow more often then not.

won't bother lining up at all.

I'll go Luc Salvas style and forget a PST and just speed through the racks.

I'll change my body position and shuffle my feet around while down on a shot.

I may determine a new strategy for position while I am down on a shot without ever standing up and resetting.


Seriously, if we are ever in the same spot, at the same time, lets play some sets and see how valuable what you know that I don't know is

You're bombarding the entire universe..

To get things in perspective, no one said cannot drop elbow, but it's about newbies picking up the standard fundamentals and mechanisms before they move on..it shortens their paths, minimises all the common errors..more consistent, that's what stick game is all about-consistency..to make a 6ft power shot once is good, but to make it over and over again, that takes consistency, and consistency comes easier with the right fundamentals..(not going into that controversial topic about perfecting mistakes, to each iits own)

Well, you may have reached a very high level but in any event you should spare some thoughts for newbies..and please don't challenge instructors or coaches..because they (not all) can almost never beat you..any idea who'll win if Beckham were to kick a ball with his coach? JMO.

 

[Snoogi]

He doesn't drop his elbow. Here's a screen shot after impact - the cueball is a few diamonds down table, and his elbow is still pinned and his cue is bent into the cloth. It drops afterward as a result of his momentum - which is enormous. The imortant stuff all occurs up to impact. You could do a back flip after the ball's gone and it won't affect the shot.

Chris

Someone mentioned the lasso effect..not sure about that but there's a short snap back (1-2 inches) after the cueball left the tip..I keep thinking of a snap draw..

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

good idea

Of course it is You would be out of business if you admitted it

Lets play some, some time. I'll teach you how to open your wallet. Tell ya what, for a spot, I'll do this -

I'll jump up at least one shot per rack.

drop my elbow more often then not.

won't bother lining up at all.

I'll go Luc Salvas style and forget a PST and just speed through the racks.

I'll change my body position and shuffle my feet around while down on a shot.

I may determine a new strategy for position while I am down on a shot without ever standing up and resetting.


Seriously, if we are ever in the same spot, at the same time, lets play some sets and see how valuable what you know that I don't know is

even if you win, you're still a moron.

 

[TATE]

Someone mentioned the lasso effect..not sure about that but there's a short snap back (1-2 inches) after the cueball left the tip..I keep thinking of a snap draw..

In the picture, his wrist is bent and his bicep stops the cue's momentum - the elbow drop and follow through he describes in the video simply isn't there except for maybe an inch or two after contact.

He has a very relaxed grip and takes a big, well timed stroke. Mike's a very big guy. I bet he knocked a few cueballs through the window before he got that draw stroke under control.

Chris

 

[Snoogi]

In the picture, his wrist is bent and his bicep stops the cue's momentum - the elbow drop and follow through he describes in the video simply isn't there except for maybe an inch or two after contact.

He has a very relaxed grip and takes a big, well timed stroke. Mike's a very big guy. I bet he knocked a few cueballs through the window before he got that draw stroke under control.

Chris

Wonder if anyone knows this nickname of his, "Tennesee Tarzan"..

Well, I believe that 1-2 inches snap back after contact is caused by the natural spring back reaction from our tendons, not purposely..

 

[Snoogi]

In the picture, his wrist is bent and his bicep stops the cue's momentum - the elbow drop and follow through he describes in the video simply isn't there except for maybe an inch or two after contact.

He has a very relaxed grip and takes a big, well timed stroke. Mike's a very big guy. I bet he knocked a few cueballs through the window before he got that draw stroke under control.

Chris

Wonder if anyone knows this nickname of his, "Tennesee Tarzan"..

Well, I believe that 1-2 inches snap back after contact is caused by the natural spring back reaction from our tendons, not purposely..that shows how fast the cue speed is..

 

[3kushn]

Of course it is You would be out of business if you admitted it

Lets play some, some time. I'll teach you how to open your wallet. Tell ya what, for a spot, I'll do this -

I'll jump up at least one shot per rack.

drop my elbow more often then not.

won't bother lining up at all.

I'll go Luc Salvas style and forget a PST and just speed through the racks.

I'll change my body position and shuffle my feet around while down on a shot.

I may determine a new strategy for position while I am down on a shot without ever standing up and resetting.


Seriously, if we are ever in the same spot, at the same time, lets play some sets and see how valuable what you know that I don't know is

Knowledge is one thing and execution is another.

I've never heard Scott Lee or any other Professional Instructor claim to be the best player in the world or even the best instructor. Teaching is an art just the same as executing a shot is an art. Without knowledge we can't do either.

I feel I have above "knowledge" of the pocket games and fundamentals but since I only play 3C it's very difficult for me to step up to a pool table cold and run 3 balls much less a 9 ball or 8 ball rack. My CB position is nearly perfect while the OB stays on the table. Frankly, it's embarrassing.

Does my lack of execution equate to a lack of knowledge? From your post and challenge to Scott I assume you know how to spin a ball. Would this knowledge alone allow you to be expert at carom games? And to prove my point. If I'm given about 2 hours warm up on a pool table I'll start running racks. Did I acquire a whole bunch of knowledge in just 2 hours or did my execution improve?

If we all could execute according to our knowledge more than half the questions on this forum would never be asked.