Milk Dud Tips Question

mooseman

mooseman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have read all the posts about milk dud tips and pressing them using a variety of methods. Tip jigs, etc.

My only question how many of you making Milk Duds actually measure the amount of pressure you use or are you just going by feel?

I've been thinking about using a torque wrench to MEASURE the pressure or amount of torque to use to repeat the environment. I'm actually waiting for delivery of my tools, so to speak.

If you have used this method what range of ft-lbs or in-lbs have worked best for you without blowing out a tip? I know I can play around with it to see what works best but it would be great to have a starting point.

Thanks
 
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I have never understood this principle. You take a soft tip & compress it to a smaller harder tip & then what? You end up with a harder shorter tip. Why the hell not buy a tip that is already hard, with twice the hight? I just don't get it...JER
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I have never understood this principle. You take a soft tip & compress it to a smaller harder tip & then what? You end up with a harder shorter tip. Why the hell not buy a tip that is already hard, with twice the hight? I just don't get it...JER
Click to expand...

You know I can definitely see your point. I have tried a variety of tips and my personal preference now is SuperPro once QBilder (Eric) turned me on to them.

When I played snooker I used Blue Diamond tips. I eventually moved over to Le Pros when I started playing more pool. Then the layered tips started coming out. When Wes built my first truly custom cue (Hunter Classic) I moved to Moori Mediums. When the Kamuis came out I had Wes install one on my other Hunter shaft.

In the interim I purchased a Sugartree that came with Sumo tips. That is the first HARD tip I ever played with. It was great but not very forgiving. Eventually Eric recommended trying a SuperPro which is now my standard tip I play with.

So as you can see I try different things... When I play competively though I'm back to my Sugartree with the SuperPro. Note: I have 3 shafts for my Sugartree (1 SuperPro/1 Hercules Medium/1 Milk Dud). The one with the milk dud is my test shaft.

I've experimented with different shaft treatments to find out what works best for me. So if you can't tell I try different things but will always return to what works best for me.

Now I want to play around with some other ideas after reading the positives of Milk Duds. My goal is to try different things under a controlled environment. Now I am simply turning my attention to Milk Duds. Let's see how much different an Elkmaster or Le Pro plays at 10/20/30/40/50/etc foot-lbs. Probably a waste of time but at least it's my time.
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I have never understood this principle. You take a soft tip & compress it to a smaller harder tip & then what? You end up with a harder shorter tip. Why the hell not buy a tip that is already hard, with twice the hight? I just don't get it...JER
Click to expand...

I'm certainly no expert - IIUC it has as much to do with the milk,
or, more specifically, the cassin(sp?) permeating the fibers.

perhaps it is akin to gluing 11 layers of thin leather together
to make a tip.

Dale
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I have never understood this principle. You take a soft tip & compress it to a smaller harder tip & then what? You end up with a harder shorter tip. Why the hell not buy a tip that is already hard, with twice the hight? I just don't get it...JER
Click to expand...

The leather still "grabs" nearly the same as a soft tip once shaped but has the feel of a hard tip.
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I have never understood this principle. You take a soft tip & compress it to a smaller harder tip & then what? You end up with a harder shorter tip. Why the hell not buy a tip that is already hard, with twice the hight? I just don't get it...JER
Click to expand...

I prefer a hard tip as most tip I use end up being hard in the end anyways. Plus a hard tip does compress much anymore and it doesn't require much break-in time. I always cut them about 1/4" high.
 
So only one person (so far) actually uses a torque wrench to quantify the pressure used when they make a milk dud. At the end of the day I guess it really isn't that important.

I guess what is important is the ability to repeat the process.

Look at the worm screw and count the number of threads you need to tighten the vise to.

Or

Build a jig that is a specific thickness and squeeze the tip until the jig prevents anymore movement of the vise.

Or

Turn the vise handle 3.5 turns, make things snug then turn the handle a 1/4 turn, hammer the handle 4 times with a 2 1/2 pound rubber mallet and click your heels 3 times.

I just thought a torque wrench offers the best repeatability in the process.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
When we press the Dudley tips, we use a pneumatic press and set the pressure to the same psi each tip. Consistency is key.
 
ratcues said:
When we press the Dudley tips, we use a pneumatic press and set the pressure to the same psi each tip. Consistency is key.
Click to expand...

Thanks... that is exactly what I was hoping for and expecting. I was actually contemplating going with a pneumatic press but couldn't justify the expense for my experiment.

Now is your pressure setting a trade secret?
 
Well thanks for the responses. I guess I will just have to do this by trial and error. I was just looking for a good starting point and I already had some ideas. I got my equipment in today and will start the process tomorrow.
 
Tip hardness is everything to the player

Hi,

I am very impressed with you guys and the way you are approaching the tip pressure concept when pressing a tip. On the softer tips, I have been using a flat jaw vise with a cheater pipe and the touchy feely thing using my own muscle memory. I will be getting a torque wrench and setting a standard for myself. I am very lucky because I own a pool hall where I do my cue repairs, I am friends with all my customers, and get enormous feedback concerning their likes and dislikes.

I the past I agreed that there is something to be said about not pressing a tip and letting nature take it's path in letting the tip compress over time. After putting some more thought into it, I now feel that it is important to press for two reasons. (1) All of the tips are very inconsistent when you weigh the durometer values. (2) When a good player changes his or her tip and it gets a softer feel than they have been playing with for months it effects their stroke and their shape positions can vary on the white ball.

Because most players of any stature don't break with their playing cue today the time it takes for the tip to reach compression refusal can take a long time. All the while the finely tuned stroke is in a state of flux until the stabilization happens. It has been my observation that most of my customers who are at a high skill level use a hard tip. They know that they will get the hard feel and sound off the ball when they caulk up the brand new tip. I know there are exceptions, Efren Rayes uses an ElkMaster with a 11mm shaft. He spins the hell out of the ball and likes the soft feel. I bet he changes his tip when it starts to stiffen up to maintain his stroke consistency.

The tip is everything to the to the player and all of the practice and playing sessions should be played with a tip that is as consistent as possible so that your pool skills don't go backwards due to variance concerning the tip.

I love AZBILLIARDS and the guys like you who are striving to reach perfection in their skills as technicians. I like to get a fresh perspective and re-think my views. Thanks for great insights and info.

Rick Geschrey
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I am very impressed with you guys and the way you are approaching the tip pressure concept when pressing a tip. On the softer tips, I have been using a flat jaw vise with a cheater pipe and the touchy feely thing using my own muscle memory. I will be getting a torque wrench and setting a standard for myself. I am very lucky because I own a pool hall where I do my cue repairs, I am friends with all my customers, and get enormous feedback concerning their likes and dislikes.
Click to expand...

Well I picked up a different vice that at least has a hex nut attached to the worm screw that allows me to use a socket with the vice. Working great so far.

I can honestly say that 25 ft-lbs is probably too much torque. Even using a tip press to prevent the flattening an Elkmaster comes out pretty flat. Probably too thin unless you need a break tip.

I have a digital torque wrench rated for 25 to 250 ft-lbs. Fortunately the digits 0-25 do appear so all is not lost. At least I can select a number to use. It's only after you reach 25 ft-lbs that allows the lights and beeps to work. So I would recommend a torque wrench rated 5 to 100 ft-lbs. A cheaper choice would be a plain torque bar/needle. Again as someone mentioned consistency is the key. At least now I can quantify my results.

I am picking up one of Rocketcues tip presses soon that will work better than the one I'm currently using.
 
height of tip

mooseman said:
Build a jig that is a specific thickness and squeeze the tip until the jig prevents anymore movement of the vise.
Click to expand...

Here is a thought. Most of the tips vary in height. I don't know if this can be attributed to inconsistent pressures in the press, the differences in the hardness of the leather or the leather was not all the same height when they were pressed.
With that being said I can make the press so you have the same height all the time but I think your torque wrench idea is going to give you more accurate and consistent results.

John
 
you can change the pressure with the same torque setting depending on the lubricant used and the surface finishes on the nut and bolt.
All that being said, as long as the process is the same, then you will have a consistant product. It all depends on what you are finally wanting. Is it a tip of the same hardness or a tip of the same thickness?
Only the person making them for themselves will know.
Neil
 
RocketQ said:
Here is a thought. Most of the tips vary in height. I don't know if this can be attributed to inconsistent pressures in the press, the differences in the hardness of the leather or the leather was not all the same height when they were pressed.
With that being said I can make the press so you have the same height all the time but I think your torque wrench idea is going to give you more accurate and consistent results.

John
Click to expand...

I was just throwing that idea out as an example. I will definitely stick with the torque wrench idea. Also I emailed you about an order for one of your tip presses.
 
Thanks. I have it ready to go and when the check gets here it will get shipped.

John
 
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