Milkdud tips versus „just dry pressed without soaking in anything“

riedmich

riedmich

.. dogs' friend ..
Silver Member
I‘m doing Milkduds now for a couple of years and I think that I understand this process well. Soaking time and conditions, pressure constance and final drying time, all these parameters are to be controlled in order to acchieve a certain quality.

Recently I was in a billard bar and had a house cue where a single layered tip was installed and it felt amazing. This brought me to a question:

If I press an Elkmaster or a Triangel with a certain force/pressure and let‘s say 72 hours, one time soaked in milk for a couple of days and one time without soaking, just dry pressed: What will be the difference to be expected between a tip that was soaked and a tip that was not soaked in milk: Soaked and then pressed versus dry pressed?

If anbody did this comparison with controlled pressure I would be very interested.
 
Elkmaster offers a pro tip now which is just a hand selected Elkmaster. Even before they started doing that I tried a few hand sorted Elkmasters that I didn't dud. The performance was very close to that of a dudded tip.

Note that I like soft tips but if you sort tips by height and weight I found there was little value in dudding them squeezing back down to factory height. A bit of a guess but I would say the dudding process is of little value. If nothing else I would try a thorough soaking in water then squeezing to compare to duds.

It has been many years but out of my last box of Elkmasters nine were very very light. I tossed these in the garbage can. Three dollars gone but I didn't cry. I dudded the rest except four I wanted to try that were very heavy. The dudded tips all fell into two weight groups with every tip in a group weighing almost the same. These tips are excellent dudded or not.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Elkmaster offers a pro tip now which is just a hand selected Elkmaster. Even before they started doing that I tried a few hand sorted Elkmasters that I didn't dud. The performance was very close to that of a dudded tip.

Note that I like soft tips but if you sort tips by height and weight I found there was little value in dudding them squeezing back down to factory height. A bit of a guess but I would say the dudding process is of little value. If nothing else I would try a thorough soaking in water then squeezing to compare to duds.

It has been many years but out of my last box of Elkmasters nine were very very light. I tossed these in the garbage can. Three dollars gone but I didn't cry. I dudded the rest except four I wanted to try that were very heavy. The dudded tips all fell into two weight groups with every tip in a group weighing almost the same. These tips are excellent dudded or not.

Hu
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The ProElks are made for snooker and hard to find them in pool diameters. Way overpriced(around 15/ea on ebay) from what i've heard. A good 'dud plays great but consistency is almost impossible. you get a few that are close and then some on another planet. Not worth the hassle. Just get a good layered or go old school elk/tri/le pro.
 
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garczar said:
The ProElks are made for snooker and hard to find them in pool diameters. Way overpriced(around 15/ea on ebay) from what i've heard. A good 'dud plays great but consistency is almost impossible. you get a few that are close and then some on another planet. Not worth the hassle. Just get a good layered or go old school elk/tri/le pro.
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The Elk Pro sold three for ten or twelve dollars last I knew, less than four dollars apiece in a blister pack. Looks like there has been a huge price increase.

Plan B, dud your own. Sell a few to get yours for free. There are a variety of inexpensive presses available now. The key is to buy a box of fifty and sort them. I measure height of one and lock my calipers to gauge the rest. Takes seconds to measure the other forty-nine. Never had an issue with height or diameter. Then I weigh them on el cheapo precision scales from harbor fright. This is where the questionable tips are sorted out. It takes me less than thirty minutes to check a box of fifty, hardly a big investment in time.

The last box had nine tips that were very very light. At about thirty cents each it didn't pain me to toss them. I had four very heavy tips. The other tips fell into two groups with every tip in those groups weighing essentially the same. These have been very good tips, dudded or not.

I don't think anything would have helped the super light nine. Somebody put one of those on a stick dudded or not and the user ain't gonna be happy!

I wouldn't buy a few Elkmasters with my last experience being one in five would be bad, I don't like the odds. On the other hand, I have a lifetime supply laying around somewhere with about sixty dollars invested including digital calipers and scales I find handy for other things too. I put a dozen or so on customer tips back when and all customers were happy.

I haven't been thrilled with layered tips, would as soon take my chances with Elkmasters. Others mileage may vary of course.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
The Elk Pro sold three for ten or twelve dollars last I knew, less than four dollars apiece in a blister pack. Looks like there has been a huge price increase.

Plan B, dud your own. Sell a few to get yours for free. There are a variety of inexpensive presses available now. The key is to buy a box of fifty and sort them. I measure height of one and lock my calipers to gauge the rest. Takes seconds to measure the other forty-nine. Never had an issue with height or diameter. Then I weigh them on el cheapo precision scales from harbor fright. This is where the questionable tips are sorted out. It takes me less than thirty minutes to check a box of fifty, hardly a big investment in time.

The last box had nine tips that were very very light. At about thirty cents each it didn't pain me to toss them. I had four very heavy tips. The other tips fell into two groups with every tip in those groups weighing essentially the same. These have been very good tips, dudded or not.

I don't think anything would have helped the super light nine. Somebody put one of those on a stick dudded or not and the user ain't gonna be happy!

I wouldn't buy a few Elkmasters with my last experience being one in five would be bad, I don't like the odds. On the other hand, I have a lifetime supply laying around somewhere with about sixty dollars invested including digital calipers and scales I find handy for other things too. I put a dozen or so on customer tips back when and all customers were happy.

I haven't been thrilled with layered tips, would as soon take my chances with Elkmasters. Others mileage may vary of course.

Hu
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About all i've used for the last 10yrs has been Ultraskin blacks. Great tips, great price and SUPER consistent. currently my buddy Duane Remick is testing Kamikaze blacks and they seem to be exact same tip to me. Tweete 's tips sucked for quite a while. I used to love LePros but getting a good one was like hitting the Powerball. Their tips are said to be much better since they quit using stomach leather(THE worst part for tips).
 
garczar said:
About all i've used for the last 10yrs has been Ultraskin blacks. Great tips, great price and SUPER consistent. currently my buddy Duane Remick is testing Kamikaze blacks and they seem to be exact same tip to me. Tweete 's tips sucked for quite a while. I used to love LePros but getting a good one was like hitting the Powerball. Their tips are said to be much better since they quit using stomach leather(THE worst part for tips).
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Stomach leather and from some other places are why I don't like layered tips. The leather is too thin and soft to make a single layer tip out of but thick enough to make a layered tip.

Another issue is that nobody knows the trip a hide has taken from being on a living animal to a tanned hide. Sometimes an animal is found that has been dead for weeks but somebody judges the hide fit to salvage. Then there are dozens of ways to tan a hide, some cheaper than others. Usually no way to know how the hide was tanned.

A multi layer tip can have a bad layer in the stack. Usually the upper layers go zinging across the room while you are cutting and shaping the tip. Sometimes the customer has the bad layer cause the tip to rip apart.

A one layer tip is good or bad. Multilayer might be good, bad, good, ... I just read that some tip shouldn't be cut down, each layer serves a different purpose. What about when the tip wears down? Do you throw it away and put another on when the top layer is gone?

To each his own and those that are happy with multilayer tips are fine by me. I'll stick with my sorted Elkmasters. I do have a CF shaft, already forgot the tip on it. It will be an Elkmaster when changed.

Hu
 
i stick a tip on and shoot for awhile with it then cut it down to the ferrel size,

then shoot with that flat tip for awhile and realize i shoot the same as any tip or any shape tip.

then after its broken in i round it off a bit and play and dont worry what it looks like.

try it sometime on a spare shaft and you will find its not the tip that matters its you.
 
maha said:
i stick a tip on and shoot for awhile with it then cut it down to the ferrel size,

then shoot with that flat tip for awhile and realize i shoot the same as any tip or any shape tip.

then after its broken in i round it off a bit and play and dont worry what it looks like.
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I remember that the house sticks used to have a pretty large flat center and just a gentle rounding right at the edge of the tip. That shape played just fine and I suspect was easier on house cues and tables. It had more leather to compress and grab too.

I am none too sure I would jump on the nickel and dime bandwagon if the tips didn't come preshaped.

Hu
 
lakeman77 said:
I've pressed dry non-soaked Elks in a vice over night and that seems to work and play well.
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I have always been concerned with damaging the fiber doing it bone dry. I think a little water might work about as good as anything else. Let things move around without ripping and easier to come by. Of course I guess I would need triple distilled stuff from some health joint!

Hu
 
When I switched to carbon fiber shafts I found the duds I usually got to be a bit too firm. I then had Jeff make some just a touch softer and they play fantastic. I have since installed them on other players' cues and they have switched from the layered tips they were using to the softer dawgduds.
As far as pressing dry is concerned, I remember years ago we would install Lepros and then take them outside and tap/push them into the sidewalk to firm them up. It was probably just in our heads but they sure seemed to play better after that. Had we known about pressing them back then we surely would have tried. Of course in those days a box of tips seemed more consistent than they are today.

ETA Jeff had extra large size tips that were a bit softer then usual, so I bought them from him. He does not stock these tips and he does not do any special order softer tips then he normal makes. I assumed he altered his method to make them slightly softer but was mistaken.
 
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riedmich said:
I‘m doing Milkduds now for a couple of years and I think that I understand this process well. Soaking time and conditions, pressure constance and final drying time, all these parameters are to be controlled in order to acchieve a certain quality.

Recently I was in a billard bar and had a house cue where a single layered tip was installed and it felt amazing. This brought me to a question:

If I press an Elkmaster or a Triangel with a certain force/pressure and let‘s say 72 hours, one time soaked in milk for a couple of days and one time without soaking, just dry pressed: What will be the difference to be expected between a tip that was soaked and a tip that was not soaked in milk: Soaked and then pressed versus dry pressed?

If anbody did this comparison with controlled pressure I would be very interested.
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Soaking in milk will produce a milk dud with or without pressing. They are usually soaked without pressing. But pressing it makes it play instantly as hard or harder than the tip will after many hours of play. By pressing dry you are just speeding up the process of breaking in the tip , unless you over press it.
 
First of all thank you very much for your input! After reading all answers and reflecting my experiences with making my own milkdud, with duds from others, with Elkmaster and Triangel "undudded", pressing dry or not, compressing the tips during installation by beating them with a file, I have an actual - maybe an intermediate - resume:

Elkmaster "like it is"
- The softest tip that I know so far
- Hardness and elasticity vary in a pretty wide range, and also how much and quickly they break in during playing.
For this reason it is recommended to outsort the "bad guys" and not use them anymore.
- If installed like it is, a good Elkmaster plays very soft and takes many hours (10+) to fully break in.
- Compared to Triangel it takes less force and less time to break in.

Elkmaster dry pressed before installing
- If dry pressed the breaking in during playing is much less and it takes less playing time to reach the final condition.
- The force during pressing affects the later hardness and elasticity, but not as much as it affects a soaked tip.

Elkmaster soaked in milk and pressed afterwards
- Soaking them in milk (3 days in the fridge is my personal favour) and pressing back to the original thickness will result
in a much harder and less elastic tip than without soaking in milk and installing it "like it is".
- The time of soaking affects also the later hardness and elasticity (the longer soaking the harder and less elascitcit will be).
- The force during pressing a milk soaked Elk will strongly affect the later elasticity and hardness.
- Pressing 3 days under constant force will allow to have very good constance from tip to tip.
- By soaking in milk for at least 2 days + pressing as hard as possible you can create also very good breaking tips
(which are still too elastic for jumping).

With Triangel - in comparison to Elkmaster - above mentioned factors are principally the same, but the levle of hardness is at Triangel in general a bit higher, and the elasticity is less.

If it goes about the hit / feeling / sound, so far I like both - Elkmaster and Triangel - very much if during installation heavily beaten with a file, and it is depending on the shaft and butt which of both feels better to me. What I will try in near future are different levels of dry pressing before installation and no file beating, hoping that I'll have at the end same feeling / performance like an Elk or Triangel beaten with a file during installation. Looking for a defined method of dry pressing Elkmaster or Triangel (with a defined force and time) is at the moment my target.

Soaking them in milk + pressing is to me not the first choice in order to have a soft tip. Soaking is a good alternative in order to create tips starting from mediumsoft upwards.

I'm very happy that I've now understood that all these layered tips will not interest me in future any more.. :)
 
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I don't get the 'too elastic for jumping' bit. Any tip that works good for breaking will work well for jumping. I could see buying a well established brand of 'dud like Outsville but making them at home, imo anyway, is a recipe for failure. No way to have any consistency.
 
garczar said:
I don't get the 'too elastic for jumping' bit. Any tip that works good for breaking will work well for jumping. I could see buying a well established brand of 'dud like Outsville but making them at home, imo anyway, is a recipe for failure. No way to have any consistency.
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It is absolutely clear to me that not every break tip is performing well if it goes about jumping, and here exspecially jumping on short distances (distance cueball to object ball). Roughly spoken, a tip for jumping needs to be very hard and with a certain level of grip, whereas a good break tip usually has more flexibility in order to allow better control. If you go deeper into the importance of "hardness": The jump tip shall only absorb a minimum of energy (issue of COR), and the characteristic / resonate frequency of a jump tip needs to be on a pretty high level. For the COR you can find something here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution.

About the consistency of milkduds: Most vises are not built for applying a definite and constant pressure, and this is one of the major reasons for inconsitency. ;-)
 
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Hi, as there passed a couple of weeks now since the latest activity in this thread, I can give an update to my intermediate findings.

Milkdud Elkmaster-based: Even if pressed with a lower than usual force, they are fitting perfectly for a friend's cue (plays and feels like Tecnodud), he is totally happy with it and it playes nicely medium-soft, but on my own playing cue this soft pressed Elkmaster still behaves / feels too hard to me like the version with a little bit more pressforce too, but this is related to the characteristics of my shaft and butt. The Elkmaster milkdud ist perfect if the feel is OK and if it fits to a cue's characteristic, but it is not so universal. The Triangel are by far more universal.

Triangel: Pressed dry or not pressed, they are clearly my actual favourite. I have the Triangel meanwhile on 3 of my 4 favourite playing shafts and also on my break shaft. The Triangel plays with a great feel to me, not too soft, not too hard, no big dampening, holds shape pretty well. Just the fibering on the sides is the only negative point, but honestly spoken that's OK because it's just an optical issue and it will stop as soon as the tips setteled completely.

So i'll go with Triangel unpressed for the future. Things can be soooo easy...
 
Has anyone tried soaking an Elkmaster, drying it out but not pressing it? Just tried it and was impressed with how it played. I recently went with Tiger Everest tips on my play cues; the prepared non pressed Elkmaster played just as well. I’ll try a few more before I make a decision on using them on my play cues. I sure like the price vs Everest tips.
 
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