Miscue == foul?

F

Fastolfe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of our club players and another guy from another club had to play a league match yesterday at my pool hall. The two hate each other's guts, and jump at every opportunity to call foul to piss the other off. Last time they played, one of them called foul on a piece of clothing touching a ball, the other denied it, and the situation almost ended up in a fight. This time, the boss didn't want any trouble, so he asked me to referee the match.

At some point, the guy from the other club miscued, but the ball went in. I called foul, because the "clunk" noise clearly indicated to me that his cue's shaft or ferrule had hit the cueball. He started yielling that it's always the same in our f...ing club, we're all a bunch of bastard, we'll get you when you come play in ours, the federation will hear about you guys, and yada-yada, then unscrewed, packed up and left rather noisily. The boss said to me "great job, that went really smoothly, thanks a lot..."

I feel bad about this. Was I technically right to call a foul? Or should I have overlooked it, considering the guy was already quite agitated and getting his ass whooped anyway, in the interest of maintaining a semblance of peace in the joint (and my club buddy probably wouldn't have said anything)?
 
Fastolfe said:
One of our club players and another guy from another club had to play a league match yesterday at my pool hall. The two hate each other's guts, and jump at every opportunity to call foul to piss the other off. Last time they played, one of them called foul on a piece of clothing touching a ball, the other denied it, and the situation almost ended up in a fight. This time, the boss didn't want any trouble, so he asked me to referee the match.

At some point, the guy from the other club miscued, but the ball went in. I called foul, because the "clunk" noise clearly indicated to me that his cue's shaft or ferrule had hit the cueball. He started yielling that it's always the same in our f...ing club, we're all a bunch of bastard, we'll get you when you come play in ours, the federation will hear about you guys, and yada-yada, then unscrewed, packed up and left rather noisily. The boss said to me "great job, that went really smoothly, thanks a lot..."

I feel bad about this. Was I technically right to call a foul? Or should I have overlooked it, considering the guy was already quite agitated and getting his ass whooped anyway, in the interest of maintaining a semblance of peace in the joint (and my club buddy probably wouldn't have said anything)?
Click to expand...

An accidental miscue is not a foul. The only time that it'll be consider a foul is when done on purpose like when scooping the ball in order to jump.
 
skor said:
An accidental miscue is not a foul. The only time that it'll be consider a foul is when done on purpose like when scooping the ball in order to jump.
Click to expand...

Well, it was accidental, but the guy was drawing hard and the cueball jumped up quite visibly. The shot was straight in and went in straight, so all in all, considering the noise it made, I'm 100% sure he scooped and the ball landed on his ferrule.

So he scooped accidentally :)
 
depends on league rules. some leagues, ferrule touching cue ball is always a foul. others, it is not.
 
Fastolfe said:
Well, it was accidental, but the guy was drawing hard and the cueball jumped up quite visibly. The shot was straight in and went in straight, so all in all, considering the noise it made, I'm 100% sure he scooped and the ball landed on his ferrule.

So he scooped accidentally :)
Click to expand...

Still not a foul by all today's tournaments standards
 
Hmm, it's my fault then. Bummer...

Note to self: update your rulebook.
2nd note to self: always refuse referee work.
 
Agree. I have never seen an accidental miscue called as a foul unless the shot resulted in a foul for some other reason like scratch, not get legal hit or rail, etc.

A question came to me. If the player from your team had done the same, would you have called the foul? If so, would he have agreed?
 
Last edited:
I agree with the original poster, although I know the others are likely right. I think whenever the ferrule bashes into the CB, scooping the CB off the table it should be a foul regardless if it was intentional or not. For the life of me, I could never understand how people think having a part of the cue that isn't the tip hitting the CB is an OK thing, regardless of intent.

Crazy, if you ask me. But, I think the rules are setup to eliminate fights more than anything since no one can PROVE the ferrule hit--- even though the entire room heard the "clank."

I guess the main thing is for both players to play under the same rules / expectations - regardless of what they are.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I agree with the original poster, although I know the others are likely right. I think whenever the ferrule bashes into the CB, scooping the CB off the table it should be a foul regardless if it was intentional or not. For the life of me, I could never understand how people think having a part of the cue that isn't the tip hitting the CB is an OK thing, regardless of intent.

Crazy, if you ask me. But, I think the rules are setup to eliminate fights more than anything since no one can PROVE the ferrule hit--- even though the entire room heard the "clank."

I guess the main thing is for both players to play under the same rules / expectations - regardless of what they are.
Click to expand...

I agree that it should be a foul and it used to be BUT it has changed and we have to play by today's rules
 
I do agree that Unintentional Miscue is not a foul as long as it Unintentionally hit the Cue Ball. But if you miscue and the cue (e.g. Ferrule, Tip, Shaft) hits an Object Ball other than the CB, then it is a foul.
 
rule

Fastolfe said:
One of our club players and another guy from another club had to play a league match yesterday at my pool hall. The two hate each other's guts, and jump at every opportunity to call foul to piss the other off. Last time they played, one of them called foul on a piece of clothing touching a ball, the other denied it, and the situation almost ended up in a fight. This time, the boss didn't want any trouble, so he asked me to referee the match.

At some point, the guy from the other club miscued, but the ball went in. I called foul, because the "clunk" noise clearly indicated to me that his cue's shaft or ferrule had hit the cueball. He started yielling that it's always the same in our f...ing club, we're all a bunch of bastard, we'll get you when you come play in ours, the federation will hear about you guys, and yada-yada, then unscrewed, packed up and left rather noisily. The boss said to me "great job, that went really smoothly, thanks a lot..."

I feel bad about this. Was I technically right to call a foul? Or should I have overlooked it, considering the guy was already quite agitated and getting his ass whooped anyway, in the interest of maintaining a semblance of peace in the joint (and my club buddy probably wouldn't have said anything)?
Click to expand...

how many BEERS had you had before calling shoot??? that might be the problem!!! dont drink and drive--- and dont drink and think you can shoot pool!!!!:confused::confused:
 
Quote from the BCAPL rules for reference:

1.32 Miscues

A miscue is not a foul if the shot is otherwise legal

What rule did you use to call this a foul??? You stated that he was trying to draw the ball so cannot call an illegal jump. I suspect a little unintentional " home cooking" here.

In this case with two player and teams "hate" each other, is a difficult match to referee. On a call like this I would want to have a written rule to fall back on or else ties go to the shooter.

Sorry. Is much easier to be a Monday Morning Quarterback than in the line of fire...

Lesson to you - If you get asked to referee a match like this again , respectfully decline.
 
Last edited:
The bca billiards big book states its a foul..3.26/3.27

The bcapl league book states the same..rule 3.26/3.27

But both my rule books are 4/5 years old..apa no foul.
 
3.26 ILLEGAL JUMPING OF BALL
It is a foul if a player strikes the cue ball below center (“digs under” or “lofts” the cue ball) and intentionally causes it to rise off the bed of the table in an effort to clear an obstructing ball. Such jumping action may occasionally occur accidentally, and such “jumps” are not to be considered fouls on their face; they may still be ruled foul strokes, if for example, the ferrule or cue shaft makes contact with the cue ball in the course of the shot.
Click to expand...
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml
 
scratchs said:
The bca billiards big book states its a foul..3.26/3.27

The bcapl league book states the same..rule 3.26/3.27

But both my rule books are 4/5 years old..apa no foul.
Click to expand...

Current WPA rules:
8.18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
Click to expand...
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
Click to expand...


Since most miscues are NOT clearly visible then most miscues are not considered a foul.
 
No foul

Somewhere on AZ I saw slow motion view of what a miscue really is and it showed that the sound that miscue makes is caused by the ferrule hitting the cue ball. Thus the incident of ferrule unintentionally contacting cue ball on a legal stroke is not a foul.
 
Last edited:
scratchs said:
The bca billiards big book states its a foul..3.26/3.27

The bcapl league book states the same..rule 3.26/3.27

But both my rule books are 4/5 years old..apa no foul.
Click to expand...

I just looked at bcapool.com rules and again under rule 1.32 says that a miscue is not a foul. Can't even find a 3.26/3.27

Under rule 1.34 a "scoop" jump shot is a foul but I think that does not apply here because the OP stated that the shooter was trying to shoot a combination with draw, miscued and "unintentionally" jumped the ball.

The ref was obviously sure in his mind that a scoop jump was not intended and even if not sure, ties go to the shooter.

In the heat of the moment, I may have done the same thing, but I think it was a bad call.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top