missing cut shots with alot of top spin.

[I rack balls]

I think that a Large amount of topspin causes an increase in the cut angle. Why? Because the OB gets backspin and skids forward a bit before rolling. I have debated and tested this and that is what I have come to find. I am pocketing balls in the center pocket. I think most people learn to adjust after playing for so long and some people use left or right on every shot and don't notice it. I usually don't adjust for the top spin unless I am applying a lot of top, it also depends on what size table/pockets and cloth I am paying on. On a fast nine footer I adjust often for top spin shots. Try it if you don't believe me. Freeze the CB on the rail and stroke in some balls, really concentrate on the contact point. I have not missed many balls on the rail in quite some time. Adjusting for straight draw depends on how thick the cut is. About a half ball hit then there is going to be some ball induced throw thats why many people use a touch of left or right on shots down the rail to keep the cut angle as you hit and predictied. I could go on all day haaah Eh maybe I am wrong........

Eric.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick,

If hit with straight follow, there is no swerve. I think the original post only mentioned top spin, and not side english. I believe Blackjack is right, it's because of too much force being used on the stroke.

I think the best way to improve on these type of shots, is to get an Accu-Stats video of some of Corey Deuel's best matches, by whatever method you prefer, and watch how he hits them. He hits these type of shots extremely smoooooth, and that's what gets the cue ball around the table, not force.

Russ

"If hit with straight follow, there is no swerve."

Yeah, I meant you have to be extra careful not to accidentally put any sidespin on it - if you do there will be swerve, even with your stick as level as possible. I think swerve is more pronounced with follow than with draw, although that's just my strong impression (no experiments or anything to prove it).

pj
chgo

 

[I rack balls]

Oh and watch people shoot balls on the rail or straight top jacked up, good players even. They overcut the shots...........

Eric.

 

[scottycoyote]

thanks for all the input, im gonna work on this tonight and see what i come up with

 

[I rack balls]

Let us know how it goes!!!!

Eric.

 

[Jal]

I think that a Large amount of topspin causes an increase in the cut angle. Why? Because the OB gets backspin and skids forward a bit before rolling. I have debated and tested this and that is what I have come to find....

Topspin can increase cut angle for a couple of reasons, namely, reduced throw and/or a greater tendency for the cueball to get airborn. But I doubt that imparted backspin on the object ball has anything to do with it. It should have the opposite effect of increasing apparent throw. It's not that throw itself is increased, but after the collision the object ball curves slightly in the direction of throw.

Draw on the cueball causes the opposite result. They both arise from the fact that the imparted spin on the object ball is not quite aligned with the object ball's throw direction. But both effects are so small that it's unlikely they'll figure in the outcome of a shot.

However, you've done some tests and if you think they prove otherwise, please elaborate.

Jim

 

[scottycoyote]

ok i did some tests.......first off, great drill VIProffessor.......once i got my top dialed in i was hitting that shot just like you diagrammed, nice. Builds up your confidence too

ok i set up the same shot over and over.....maybe its me or some type of form error........but i was as mindful as i could be of good mechanics.......made sure i finished with my tip down on the table and completely following thru......and it did seem that hitting the ball just a taddd thinner made these shots go in better. I was coming over, maybe 1/16 of a ball farther than i would for the same cut shot and center ball.......and i think i had just one ball get spit back out. Hitting the ball in the exact same spot as center, but with alot of hard top.....i only made it once, and had 4 or 5 spit out. Thanks for the input, i think a little thinner is the answer

 

[Patrick Johnson]

ok i did some tests.......first off, great drill VIProffessor.......once i got my top dialed in i was hitting that shot just like you diagrammed, nice. Builds up your confidence too

ok i set up the same shot over and over.....maybe its me or some type of form error........but i was as mindful as i could be of good mechanics.......made sure i finished with my tip down on the table and completely following thru......and it did seem that hitting the ball just a taddd thinner made these shots go in better. I was coming over, maybe 1/16 of a ball farther than i would for the same cut shot and center ball.......and i think i had just one ball get spit back out. Hitting the ball in the exact same spot as center, but with alot of hard top.....i only made it once, and had 4 or 5 spit out. Thanks for the input, i think a little thinner is the answer

Have you tried cutting to the left and right?

pj
chgo

 

[scottycoyote]

Have you tried cutting to the left and right?

pj
chgo

yeah i tried cutting it both ways.....with the ball about 2 diamonds up and one diamond out of each corner pocket.......and a few with the object ball about 3 inches off the rail and the cueball near the center of the table. Each time i cut the ball just a hair thinner with extreme hard top, seemed to help quite a bit. Anybody else tried it out?

 

[Samiel]

I notice that when I miss a lot of force follow shots, I tend to not cut the object ball enough... which means I need to hit the object ball thinner. Yesterday, I was practicing near down the rail shots with. I found that if I hit the pocket on the side opposite the rail I was shooting down, the object ball would invariably bounce out almost every time. When I overcut slightly to the side of the rail, it would go in almost every time. My advice would be to practice shooting follow shots to either side of the pocket and see which side favors the shot.

 

[TATE]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? I know lots of shots where you aim thick or thin to make up for skid, deflection, etc........for some reason when i have a shot where im trying to really get alot of top spin and the shot involves any kind of angle, the ball usually jaws the pocket and bounces out.

The fractional amount of throw difference shouldn't cause an aim adjustment. My understanding is either draw or follow can reduce the throw effect on dirty or sticky balls, but I don't know anybody who adjusts their aim for it.

The reason why your aim is off using a lot of follow is probably because you are hitting down on the cueball. When you do this it squirts any fractional off center hit on the cueball off line (a slight masse effect). That's why hitting a jacked up shot is so difficult.

Try lowering the butt of your cue when using force. On your final stoke, take the cue back slowly, make a relaxed transition, then stroke smoothly but firmly level at the cueball. The cue won't actually be level, but it helps if it feels level. I think you will see the light and a lot better cueball action with a little practice.

Chris

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...watch people shoot balls on the rail or straight top jacked up, good players even. They overcut the shots

How could you possible tell whether they're overcutting, undercutting or neither?

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

is there some adjustment i should be making when im trying to load up the cueball with alot of top spin? ...

This is a question that was around for a while without a good answer. I remember talking to Don "Preacher" Feeney about it maybe 15 years ago. He had the feeling that draw and follow were opposite in effect. I wasn't sure. Most people will make the aiming adjustment subconsciously.

About 7 years ago various people started looking at the problem from a physics perspective. The answer that study gives is clear: if you have draw or follow on a cut shot, the cut angle will be larger than if you have no draw or follow. (In all cases, we are assuming no side spin.)

A simple experiment that you can do yourself is described in the article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2006-05.pdf The general problem with such experiments is that the shooter will subconsciously try to make the object ball go in a certain direction -- that's what playing pool is all about. The real problem is to design the experiment to take the human out of the equation as much as possible.

The result of the experiment is that for normal, clean pool balls, if the shot is about a half-ball cut, the difference between follow (or draw) and a stun shot is 4 inches in six diamonds (depending on speed and other factors). That's clearly enough that you must make the adjustment to be able to pocket such a shot. (Shoot a ball off the spot to a far corner pocket, for example.)

 

[icem3n]

and it did seem that hitting the ball just a taddd thinner made these shots go in better. I was coming over, maybe 1/16 of a ball farther than i would for the same cut shot and center ball.......and i think i had just one ball get spit back out. Hitting the ball in the exact same spot as center, but with alot of hard top.....i only made it once, and had 4 or 5 spit out. Thanks for the input, i think a little thinner is the answer

When you cutting a ball, there are few thing to consider;
1. The amount of float(vertical travel) on the cueball.
2. How powerful is your stroke.
3. Distance of the ball.
4. The Angle and how much throw on the object ball.
5. How parrallel is your cue to the table.

The more powerful your stroke, the more the c/b will float in the air (bounce). Hence on a cut shot you need to aim fuller (a hair to a card).
But this also depends on the distance. The shorter the distance the more adjustment needed cause the cb is not going to hit on the equator of the ball that you intend to hit but millimeter higher of the object ball. Longer distance or table length, the bounces of cb eventually is coming to a settle, so contact point is closer to the equator of the object ball, so not so much compensation needed.

After considering the above factor, you should again calculate the amount of throw the o/b is going to have.
For a quarter ball short or i would say cut ball that is more than 45 degree cut will have more throw. So with soft to medium short and again depend on the distance you should overcut the ball (Try aiming at the nearest knuckle of the Jaw to you).

For long distance and soft shot, you should forget about the floating c/b. But think about throw.

For shorter distance and powerful shot(floating c/b should be taken into account), as this will cause the c/b to be hit thinner on shots that are of more than a half ball(very minimal effect) cut but would see more effect on shot more than 45 degree cut shot .

Try an impossible cut that is more than your normal finest cut short and you think might not go, but than again you think might go, something like a 92 degree cut shot . You will find that, when cutting this very very very thin fine cut on short distance ball about two diamonds with top spin, most of the time this object ball will go with sweet medium speed stroke (not powerful).

Playing pool is not about aiming but also calculating the amount of physic involve on the cueball, objectball, slate, nap/cloth, rubber and cue. Do try this out.

 

[Deadon]

It seems to me that I see people miss the shot because they hit it too hard, per Blackjack. Thats partially a function of not knowing what part of your tip is hitting the CB and where. Proper cueing. There is a problem because as we look over the cue, we often don't realize that on stoke shots, exteme or force follow and draw shots, we have to adjust to level of the cue so the right part of the tip hits the CB as high or low as possible. Then as others have pointed out, just follow through.

Hope I didn't muck that idea up!

 

[I rack balls]

About 7 years ago various people started looking at the problem from a physics perspective. The answer that study gives is clear: if you have draw or follow on a cut shot, the cut angle will be larger than if you have no draw or follow. (In all cases, we are assuming no side spin.)

Eh thats what I have come to find, I am convinced. I guess I'll keep not missing balls haah.

Eric.

 

[cubc]

Yeah! I have that exact same problem, mine usually jumps off the object ball first though...

Sounds like something from an aramith cue ball. Dont use aramith cue balls if so. They're bigger than the regular balls. Take an Aramith cue ball (the one with all the red dots) and put 2 regular object balls on each side of it then set the rack on top and you'll see it see-saw from side to side. A bigger cue ball means the center of theball is higher than the other centers which will cause it to lift if hit with force thus making it jump a lot on certain shots.

If you dont use that then I just wasted this time posting this

 

[jingle]

Follow= a slightly thicker hit.

Draw = a slightly thinner hit.

.

I agree with Scottster's very concise summary.

 

[thoffen]

It has to do with the pocket speed and what the pocket will accept from a shot hit at that angle. Most of these shots are hit at the wrong speed and the pocket will reject it because of that factor, not the accuracy.

The shot can be hit accurately, but the excessive speed might take the object ball past the pocket opening to the inside pocket tip, causing it to rebound or rattle out.

Playing close attention to this will increase your in-game accuracy a ton. The best play patterns that sometimes seem out of the ordinary to even great players. They will generally accept a longer shot or a wierd cut if it allows them to play the big part of the pocket with pocket speed for easy position. Keep it simple.

Francisco Bustamante is my idol in patterns now. Since I started paying more attention to the speed of certain shots, his somewhat funky game has become genius.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I agree with Scottster's very concise summary. (That draw and follow give opposite "throw" results.)

That may be how it seems, but it's not how the balls work.