Monday night APA 8-ball fiasco

[Maniac]

Yep, it was a cluster-f##k of epidemic porportions . Here's what went down: My wife, a SL3, was in a match with a young man who was a SL5. She had to win 2 games, he had to win 4. He won the first 2 games, although my wife wasn't shooting all that badly. He missed the 8-ball a couple of times in the third game and my wife made a couple here and a couple there and made a good cut shot on the 8 to win game three. She came back to where we were sitting and made the comment that her opponent was pi$$ed at losing that game. So, here's what happened in game 4: After a few innings, my wife had three striped balls on the table, he had only the 8. The 8 was clustered between two of my wife's balls near the center of the table. She had just missed a shot on the unclustered striped ball near a corner pocket that left him unable to hit his 8-ball. He decides to shoot her ball (that was blocking the cluster) into the cluster in the attempt to cluster the balls up so bad that she, with ball-in-hand would have to break-up the cluster when she hit one of her balls and drove a ball to a rail. He did indeed put her ball right into the cluster giving her ball in hand. EXCEPT... as the cue ball was rolling in the general direction of the corner pocket, he stopped it with his cue. My wife, taking ball-in-hand proceeded to line up a shot and made it, breaking up the cluster. She took another shot and made it. Now, during these last two shots my wife made, our Captain turned around and said to me "That should have been loss of game when he stopped the cue ball". Then I also realized that he only had the eight-ball to shoot at (it confused everybody when he intentionally shot my wife's ball) and that him impeding the cue ball in a game losing situation is automatic forfeiture of the game. I told my Captain to say something, and he did. My wife's opponent came over and wanted an explanation of what the hell we were talking about. Things got a little loud and crazy when I tried to explain to him that you can't impede the roll of the cue ball in a game losing situation. One of the other players on the other team ran up and got in my face. A fight could have ensued but was averted. Then my wife's opponent went over to the table and gathered up the remaining balls as if he was gonna rack them or something. When he realizes the match was over, he broke his cue down, then my wife did also. After a couple minutes of bickering back and forth, my wife's opponent called his team Captain (who wasn't present at the match) and when he got off the phone, he said that he lost (although you could tell he wasn't too happy about it). Then the other scorekeeper made the comment that because my wife had shot twice after he impeded the cue ball, that our claim was nullified. Then, our scorekeeper said that because he broke down his cue, he forfeited. Then they said, "Well, she broke her cue down too". Back and forth it went for a few minutes. Anyway, in the end my wife got the game and the match although nobody felt good about it because of all the bad feelings. Today, I couldn't find anything in the rules that says when a person shoots, it nullifies a loss-of-game situation. It may be in the APA general rules, but I can't find them. What went down last night, how would YOU have interpreted this situation???

Maniac

 

[ilovepool]

Let me start my telling you I think the APA makes the rules up as they go. My local league has a rule enfored that if you touch the ball while it's moving than it's an automatic loss of game! I went to Las Vegas in Aug where the same thing happened. We called the foul brought the ref over to the table, and waited for the ruling. Come to find out that it's NOT a national rule!!!!!! The rule has to be one that is imposed at the local level. After being out to Vegas in Aug I've realized that the APA is a HUGE rip off. Players pay close to 500.00 a year for fees and weekly dues, and then to have a chance to win 25k split 8 ways. If you do the math you realize that a few people within that APA get rich on local players who love to play the game. So if your leage operator hasn't put this rule into play locally, at the national level it isn't a rule either. Hope this helps.

 

[Jeff]

Assuming you are right about the loss of game with what he did.

My comment is about her making a couple of balls before the foul was called.

I would think that fouls need to be called at the time it happens or VERY close thereof. Especially if the non-fouling person shoots a few times before it is called on the other guy. I have no idea what the rules say, but I myself would have let it go in that situation.

The only difference in my feeling would be if it was a playoff game but not in a regular league match.

 

[42NateBaller]

Similar APA situation

Something similar was obeserved in my area. The ruling was that the game is over once a game ending condition exists; making the 8, scratching on the 8, or in this case fouling/scratching on the 8. All other actions after a game ending condition are irrelevant.

 

[magnetardo]

This is a APA National rule, I have had a player called on it at Nationals before and every year at the captains meeting they mention this rule. I just checked and it is in the rule book. http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf top right of page 8 I believe.
I have only seen the breaking down of the cue stick being a foul in BCA leagues though and have never heard of it being called in the APA.

 

[cajunbarboxplyr]

wooooohoooo typical APA.

 

[MrLucky]

You are right!

Assuming you are right about the loss of game with what he did.

My comment is about her making a couple of balls before the foul was called.

I would think that fouls need to be called at the time it happens or VERY close thereof. Especially if the non-fouling person shoots a few times before it is called on the other guy. I have no idea what the rules say, but I myself would have let it go in that situation.

The only difference in my feeling would be if it was a playoff game but not in a regular league match.

First off! I have never in 28 years heard of that rule saying he would have lost ! it was what it was a ball in hand to your wife ! having said that there should be a rule about it since it was really bad sportsmanship and after all isn't this SUPPOSED to be a amateur fun league?
second when a foul occurs it is up to the opposing player to call it if they go on and shoot their ball then the foul is null and void!!!! so if he broke his cue down first then he loses ! since there is a rule that states if you do this you forfeit the match ! this was instituted to avoid Sharking ones opponent by breaking down before the 8 is sunk and then if they slack off or just hit the ball assuming a win ! you can't call a loss on them!

 

[RedGuru]

Would the cue have scratched? That is the only way it would be a game-losing situation. The fair thing to do would be to give her ball-in-hand, which she deserved unless he prevented the cue from falling in a pocket on an 8-ball shot.

 

[Maniac]

First off! I have never in 28 years heard of that rule saying he would have lost ! it was what it was a ball in hand to your wife ! having said that there should be a rule about it since it was really bad sportsmanship and after all isn't this SUPPOSED to be a amateur fun league?

second when a foul occurs it is up to the opposing player to call it if they go on and shoot their ball then the foul is null and void!!!! so if he broke his cue down first then he loses ! since there is a rule that states if you do this you forfeit the match ! this was instituted to avoid Sharking ones opponent by breaking down before the 8 is sunk and then if they slack off or just hit the ball assuming a win ! you can't call a loss on them!

Actually, there is a rule for this first part of your statement. It is APA 8-ball rule #10, part f. It states: "A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the 8-ball or cueball in a game losing situation". I may not have said this in the OP but let me share this now. At the time he stopped the cue ball with his cue, it appeared as though it was going to go into the corner pocket. In essence, he would have scratched on the 8-ball.

Actually, there is a rule for the second part of this statement. It is APA 8-ball rule #9, and it is highlighted in the book. It states: "ONLY THE PLAYER OR THE COACH MAY OFFICIALLY CALL A FOUL".

And for the record, I couldn't find in the rules anywhere that it says a foul cannot be called after the incoming player takes a shot (or two). But I agree that we should've just left it alone and continued on with the game. Hindsight is 20/20 vision. My wife would've lost, but what the heck, she's used to that. The problem was that the arrangement of the balls had been disturbed (by the opposing player).

Let me also mention, although this won't matter to most, that the young man my wife was playing is a cocky little ba$tard who has a reputation as being a sandbagger. I think this is why my team was so willing to argue/lobby for this game to be a forfeit. If he would have been a good "sportsman", he would have just let the cueball gone into the corner pocket and shook my wife's hand and said "nice match". I believe in my heart that he was trying to pull a "fast one" on us.

Maniac

 

[Bob Jewett]

... EXCEPT... as the cue ball was rolling in the general direction of the corner pocket, he stopped it with his cue. My wife, taking ball-in-hand proceeded to line up a shot and made it, breaking up the cluster. She took another shot and made it. ...

I'm not sure what the APA rule is, but in any rational rule set, if you don't call a foul before the next shot starts, you have lost your right to call a foul. This applies even in game-loss situations. "Silence is consent," if you want a catch phrase. After your wife took her first shot, I think you should have kept quiet until you could speak to her alone about the rules.

 

[magnetardo]

Would the cue have scratched? That is the only way it would be a game-losing situation. The fair thing to do would be to give her ball-in-hand, which she deserved unless he prevented the cue from falling in a pocket on an 8-ball shot.

The way they explain it in the captains meeting at Nationals every year is: if you touch a cue ball that is in motion when you are on the 8-ball and there is NOT a ref there to say it would not have scratched if you didn't stop it it is automatic loss of game. I've been to APA nationals 4 times since 2000 and they have gone over it every time. I even had a player that stopped a ball that was slowly rolling to the center of the foot rail at most would have bounced an inch or so off and had a ref call it a foul, after explaining the rule and what they had said in the captains meeting she insisted it was still a foul. It basically boils down to a ref's interpretation of a rule unless you want to get the floor manager or TD involved.

As far as calling a foul after the opponent shot, in my book it would be too late, it's up to either the player or the team captain to call a foul before she shoots, but that is just my opinion.

 

[RedGuru]

Spirit of the law or letter of the law? He did say that it would have scratched, so I would have called the foul. However, the player and captain continued the match without raising the question.

 

[MrLucky]

That is the way it is in APA also!

I'm not sure what the APA rule is, but in any rational rule set, if you don't call a foul before the next shot starts, you have lost your right to call a foul. This applies even in game-loss situations. "Silence is consent," if you want a catch phrase. After your wife took her first shot, I think you should have kept quiet until you could speak to her alone about the rules.

this came up once in the nationals (it was a few years ago! though) and when my team mate player (nor LOL! the captain!) called the foul the other player went on and shot and a few people called he foul to our attention but it was deemed too late!

 

[Gregg]

I'm not here to wave the APA flag, but as a league player on various leages and team Captain on an APA team, can I toss out a few thoughts;

-Far to many people are quick to bash armature leagues on message boards for not knowing or choosing to enforce the rules. Get the team manual, read it, and enforce it. Call the league operator if a discrepancy arises. I've had very good success with this, and have avoided lots of confrontations.

-No offense, but if your team captain wanted to enforce the rule, what was he waiting for?

-Sure BCA, TAP, APA, and a host of others are armature leagues, but the best thing about them is that there set rules that everyone is expected to follow. This way we can relax, and enjoy the game, without the rules changing from night to night, bar to bar, or even game to game on the same table in the same bar.

 

[poolcuemaster]

The only instance I know of that seems the same in APA 8 ball rules is that if your oposing player starts shooting your balls in error, it is your right to let him shoot till you decide to stop him maybe before he shoots the eight and it will be your turn. Very chicken s##t but it happens,but if player realises his mistake he can revert back to shooting his balls without a foul if he contacts one of his balls and gets a rail.

 

[Maniac]

I'm not here to wave the APA flag, but as a league player on various leages and team Captain on an APA team, can I toss out a few thoughts;

-Far to many people are quick to bash armature leagues on message boards for not knowing or choosing to enforce the rules. Get the team manual, read it, and enforce it. Call the league operator if a discrepancy arises. I've had very good success with this, and have avoided lots of confrontations.

-No offense, but if your team captain wanted to enforce the rule, what was he waiting for?

-Sure BCA, TAP, APA, and a host of others are armature leagues, but the best thing about them is that there set rules that everyone is expected to follow. This way we can relax, and enjoy the game, without the rules changing from night to night, bar to bar, or even game to game on the same table in the same bar.

Greg, I hope you weren't thinking that I was bashing the APA because I wasn't. It's just that an unfortunate scenario occured and kinda put a damper on an otherwise enjoyable evening.

I have three APA rule books. I carry one in my cue case. I read/scan through them often, enough that I pretty much know what the rules are for 8 and 9-ball. It seems as though there used to be a book of APA General Rules for Pool that gave the rulings on the game of pool in general. I can't find it. Maybe it was one of those things that got in my head and won't go away.

As far as the Team Captain waiting to enforce the rule, well.... Our Team Captain, like everyone else on the team, is just out for a night of fun and socializing. He drinks beer, too much IMO. On top of that, he was half-interested in the MNF game between the Raiders and the Seahawks. He was not 100% paying attention. He, in his partially inebriated state, got a bit confused when he saw my wife's opponent shoot at her striped ball. Only after he saw my wife line up w/ball-in-hand to shoot a striped ball did he realize what was going on.

Like I said in my OP, I didn't exactly like how it all went down. It was a tainted win for my wife to say the least. She was willing, at my suggestion, to continue the game, but the opponent had already messed-up the balls on the table. He did consent to a loss. He probably wasn't thrilled about it but I think after he settled down, he was alright with it.

Yes, the amateur leagues do have written rules, but the written rules (especially in the APA) don't always cover every scenerio that may occur. Heck, even the rules in proffessional tournaments don't cover all the bases, or else there wouldn't be players taking off their shoes and climbing on the table on all fours to take a shot !

I feel badly for this whole situation to have occured, and when I see the young man my wife was shooting again, I'm going to offer him an apology and tell him that I wish we could have come up with a better solution as to what happened that night. I guarantee you this, I will be giving all the matches from now on my fullest attention.

Shoot well, my friend!!!

Maniac

 

[the_mutz]

I would have quit that league. Pool league is not worth fighting over. It's not like you're playing $1000 sets.

 

[Craig Fales]

That's one reason I don't even bother with leagues...you always get a drunk shit-for-brains that wants to cause trouble over something stupid...
________

 

[Gregg]

Greg, I hope you weren't thinking that I was bashing the APA because I wasn't. It's just that an unfortunate scenario occurred and kinda put a damper on an otherwise enjoyable evening.
Maniac

Sorry myself if I came across as bashing your post. You seem well informed and well spoken about the situation. In the past, people have been highly opinionated about leagues, and are fast to bash, and slow to find out the correct rules.

Next time, call things as they occur, and again, call the league operator next time a dispute over rules. Our league operator is often available in the pool hall, or at the very lest via cell phone on league nights. Let them take the heat, so you can enjoy your evening, and everyone goes home happy.

 

[Maniac]

Sorry myself if I came across as bashing your post. You seem well informed and well spoken about the situation. In the past, people have been highly opinionated about leagues, and are fast to bash, and slow to find out the correct rules.

Next time, call things as they occur, and again, call the league operator next time a dispute over rules. Our league operator is often available in the pool hall, or at the very lest via cell phone on league nights. Let them take the heat, so you can enjoy your evening, and everyone goes home happy.

Everything's cool on this end, my friend! And looking back on Monday night, I think it was the League Operator he was talking to when he hung up and said "I lose". Our league plays out of bars, with seven different bars participating. This being only my second session with this league, I have as yet to see the League Operator in person. Shoot well, and may you get the good rolls!!!

Maniac