Moral dillema with Ivory use w/cues

[wambamcam]

I know this has been somewhat discussed before on AZ, but with the issues of elephants on the brink of extinction in several countries (Sumatra, Thailand, Sudan, etc.), are the demands of ivory in cues contributing to the illegal poaching and killing of these majestic animals? I know that most elephant ivory used on cues are obtained legally, but just the fact that it is in such high demand has greatly increased illegal poaching.

It is a very real possibility that the demand of ivory could lead to elephants being hunted to near extinction in many countries.

Thoughts?

 

[Cornerman]

I know this has been somewhat discussed before on AZ, but with the issues of elephants on the brink of extinction in several countries (Sumatra, Thailand, Sudan, etc.), are the demands of ivory in cues contributing to the illegal poaching and killing of these majestic animals? I know that most elephant ivory used on cues are obtained legally, but just the fact that it is in such high demand has greatly increased illegal poaching.

It is a very real possibility that the demand of ivory could lead to elephants being hunted to near extinction in many countries.

Thoughts?

I'd say it isn't. Cues can't use green ivory.

And I think you need to do a study on ivory poaching and the health of the elephant population. As I was, you'd be surprised how healthy this endangered species is.

Freddie <~~~ not easily surprised

 

[Woof Biscuit]

I think about it all of the time. I have a cue now with ivory and feel weird about it. Like Cornerman says, you can't use "green" ivory, but buying still perpetuates the trade and demand. It's a personal decision, but I don't think I will buy anything else with ivory. I do think it is beautiful.

On another note, the cue cases made of elephant hide make me cringe. Again, its a personal thing and you have to decide for yourself. I don't look down on others for having it, but its just not for me.

 

[bbb]

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...187&bih=549&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&cad=b
google search
wikipedia ivory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory
Ivory usage in the last thirty years has moved towards mass production of souvenirs and jewellery. In Japan, the increase in wealth sparked consumption of solid ivory hankos - name seals - which before this time had been made of wood. These hankos can be carved out in a matter of seconds using machinery and were partly responsible for massive African elephant decline in the 1980s, when the African elephant population went from 1.3 million to around 600,000 in ten years.[5][12]

in older days billiard balls was listed as a common use for ivory but now balls are phenolic or some resin or plastic
in my breif search cue stick inlays was never mentioned
leading me to beleive the percent in cues is small compared to how it is used worldwide
not sure a boycott of ivory in pool cues would save the elephants
jmho
if you dont eat meat because of cruelty to animal issues and want to not buy cues with ivory for the same reasons i respect your right to do so

 

[robertno1pool]

Elephant ivory

It is a big planet and not everyone will read your post. All will not read mine either.

You can only control what you can. No telling what all countries and all people are doing.

It may be more likely ivory is being used for artistic carvings and ear rings than cue parts - but no way to know.

AZ is a global forum, but operates out of the U.S.A. I think the U.S.A. has implemented laws that minimize the likelihood that a well known cue maker with an established reputation would do anything other than use legal ivory. If illegal ivory was “free”, would a cue maker risk using it just to same some money on a single cue? None of this "legal ivory" used in the USA is likely to have had much of an effect elephants disappearing in the countries you listed - but that is my opinion.

It is possible that some ivory and hide come from an elephant that dies from old age or natural causes. There is not evidence to support that the tusk and hide are unusable unless from hunting down a living elephant and killing it.

The Countries you list could reverse this course if they choose to spend money to do so. It is partly their fault that Sumatra, Thailand, Sudan do establish hunting laws, enforce them and fund wildlife management. If one listed every fault contributing to elephant extinction I expect - if you can not exceed 100% in aggregate - that cue parts from elephant ivory would have to be a low percentage.

I have a cue with a mammoth sleeve and a piece of the ivory to prove to me it was mammoth ivory that I can analyze based on “Schreger lines”. No telling if this mammoth was the last one left and this ivory caused the extinction of mammoths. I do not worry about hitting balls with the cue.

See: http://www.lab.fws.gov/ivory.php

Is it possible you would feel different about using a cue with Legal ivory and the paperwork to prove it? Only you can decide – but if one is unable to consider evidence in that decision, It is narrow minded to think that pre-ban ivory (before 1989 – if I understand this correctly) is still eliminating elephants . (Not meaning to imply you or anyone on this issue that supports one side or the other is narrow minded, just asking that you consider the realities of evidence and % effect that cue parts does have.)

I am willing to consider evidence - past, present and future.

 

[Island Drive]

Joss West

What Stroud would do is purchase tusks from those that had acquired them from past hunting trips. These were from private collections taken yrs ago and legally. I'd much rather see them used for cues or inlays of guitars etc. than have em sit mounted on a wall in some rich persons mansion collecting dust.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Elephant population?

I'd say it isn't. Cues can't use green ivory.

And I think you need to do a study on ivory poaching and the health of the elephant population. As I was, you'd be surprised how healthy this endangered species is.

Freddie <~~~ not easily surprised

Where did you get your info on elephant populations?

In a few countries the population is stable, but in most it's declining rapidly and it's completely gone from many.

 

[KRJ]

I think about it all of the time. I have a cue now with ivory and feel weird about it. Like Cornerman says, you can't use "green" ivory, but buying still perpetuates the trade and demand. It's a personal decision, but I don't think I will buy anything else with ivory. I do think it is beautiful.

On another note, the cue cases made of elephant hide make me cringe. Again, its a personal thing and you have to decide for yourself. I don't look down on others for having it, but its just not for me.

I agree.... and the other "white" stuff looks just as good on a cue imho....heck, some folks have to ask most of the time if it is ivory or not.... or they have to look very closely....so even why pay the extra money for it ??

I like the diff woods, the veneers, the inlays, the design, etc over a part that may or may not be ivory....I could care less when someone tells me all the white is ivory... cause if it is NOT a good looking cue, all the ivory in the world is not going to change that ....

 

[MJB]

Where did you get your info on elephant populations?

In a few countries the population is stable, but in most it's declining rapidly and it's completely gone from many.

I was going to ask the same question. Given that the internet is a source of infinite information and mis-information, I'm sure that you can find some websites that will publish numbers showing the African elephant population is stable. There's probably at least one website that will say that elephants are from space. Most will say that the African elephant population has been cut down by ~50% in the last 25 years and that the main reason is poaching because of increased demand in Africa and Asia. And yes, you probably won't see any mention of increased demand in the USA or due to demand for ivory in pool cues.

I have recently chosen not to use ivory in my cues because I feel think that the worldwide demand for ivory is what drives the decline in the African elephant population. Yes, I could purchase ivory that is completely legal, and no, I don't think that my not using ivory is going to cause an epiphany for the cue industry. I'm just not choosing to make the distinction that "legal" ivory doesn't contribute to the demand.

And I love me some venison. But if white tail deer deer went on the endangered list....I'd stick to beef.

Mike

 

[JoseV]

Well I feel no dilemma cause my ivory ferrules and the ivory came from Joss Cues. So I'm going to vouch with conference that they get there ivory the moral way.

 

[smallfry419]

I believe there will be a decline of ivory used in cues in the next decade or
so. I'm a young kid. 24 years old. I believe my generation and the next could
honestly care less if a cue has ivory or not.

I believe with the US making it illegal most people my age or younger has
never heard of ivory. I grew up in a pool hall when I was younger and that
was the first time I even knew what ivory was. Also just venting here but
my generation doesn't know what a good pool stick looks like either. I am
seeing way too many damn flames or cue sticks that have an 8 ball on them.
Had to get that off my chest