Mosconi Cup Team Captain

[Black Cat 5791]

I pose this question, because I'm ashamed to say I don't know the answer.

1. What exactly is the duties of the Team Captain for the Mosconi Cup Team?

2. What exactly is the responsibility of the Coach or Trainer?

I'm asking these questions because there was another thread about the Team and I don't want to hijack that one. I have some other questions that will develop through this but lets start here.

Black Cat

 

[boogeyman]

I pose this question, because I'm ashamed to say I don't know the answer.

1. What exactly [are] the duties of the Team Captain for the Mosconi Cup Team?

2. What exactly is the responsibility of the Coach or Trainer?

Hey, Black Cat.
Good question; although I believe the answers have been implied through other
threads as you might have read.
I will offer my insights in light of Mark Wilson's recent undertaking(s) as Team U.S.A. Captain.

1) The duties are simple: organize the various team practices/promotions and logistics to the venue.
Communicate with the organizers so as to understand the venue's rules and regulations.
Be the mouthpiece at different meetings so as to pass information to the players.
Motivate players and offer insights during and between matches.

2) This question seems redundant; however, I will say this:
I believe each player signs waivers and carries his own insurance (as opposed to an "sport team" type).
(I can't see Mark Wilson being responsible for the actions and behaviors of the individuals players
--either at the venue out in the town)

 

[Kid Dynomite]

I pose this question, because I'm ashamed to say I don't know the answer.

1. What exactly is the duties of the Team Captain for the Mosconi Cup Team?

2. What exactly is the responsibility of the Coach or Trainer?

I'm asking these questions because there was another thread about the Team and I don't want to hijack that one. I have some other questions that will develop through this but lets start here.

Black Cat

My understanding!

1. Pick the team members
2. Allocate the $60,000 if lose/ Allocate $120,000 if win
3. Make travel arrangements
4. Participate in a few Interviews and promotional functions
5. Establish curfews practice regimes and other duties as assigned for the players.
This short list above is the basic responsibilities as I know or have heard them!

A lot of leeway goes to the captain to reward and punish players and get the best outcome possible. He could pay for only wins! He could pay for performance or divide the money up evenly. other than covering travel and expenses, the coach can set the pay scale and metric for the pay scale to best motivate the players and team.

KD

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Hey, Black Cat.
Good question; although I believe the answers have been implied through other
threads as you might have read.
I will offer my insights in light of Mark Wilson's recent undertaking(s) as Team U.S.A. Captain.

1) The duties are simple: organize the various team practices/promotions and logistics to the venue.
Communicate with the organizers so as to understand the venue's rules and regulations.
Be the mouthpiece at different meetings so as to pass information to the players.
Motivate players and offer insights during and between matches.

2) This question seems redundant; however, I will say this:
I believe each player signs waivers and carries his own insurance (as opposed to an "sport team" type).
(I can't see Mark Wilson being responsible for the actions and behaviors of the individuals players
--either at the venue out in the town)

So they are really just a Manager and there really is no CAPTAIN, nor is there a COACH/TRAINER.

So my next question is, what does the European Team do differently that has made it possible for them to keep this winning streak going.

I would suppose the answer lies in here somewhere, I was hoping to get more dialogue going.

Black Cat

 

[Kid Dynomite]

So they are really just a Manager and there really is no CAPTAIN, nor is there a COACH/TRAINER.

So my next question is, what does the European Team do differently that has made it possible for them to keep this winning streak going.

I would suppose the answer lies in here somewhere, I was hoping to get more dialogue going.

Black Cat

They practice and train. They could beat any USA team we build in push ups or a marathon and they take it more serious as they have a MUCH larger amount of expenses to play this sport and compete. So, they are more focused then the guy spending $500 in expenses to play in an event when they are spending $2000 and fading long international flights. It toughens them up and makes them mentally stronger then our knuckle heads.

KD

 

[Justin Bergman]

No, the captain don't pay us and he can't only give money to players that got wins. Matchroom pays us. I think so many people over rate the job of the captain. I shouldn't say over rate actually opposite to many people blaming the captain or looking to deep why we lost. We lost because Europe made less mistakes. Any captain we had this year would be the same result most likely. Mark could be captain next week and we could win as you all would be saying he's a genius. Mainly imo Matchrrom wants captains so they can go through one guy to make announcements, travel arrangements, give speeches, interviews, all that stuff instead going through each player. Also think it looks good more like a real team event with captains but they don't have that much outcome on the match.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

No, the captain don't pay us and he can't only give money to players that got wins. Matchroom pays us. I think so many people over rate the job of the captain. I shouldn't say over rate actually opposite to many propel blaming the captain or looking to deep why we lost. We lost because Europe made less mistakes. Any captain we had this year it would be the same result most likely. Mark could be captain next week and we could win as you all would be saying he's a genius. Mainly imo Matchrrom wants captains so they can go through one guy to make announcements, travel arrangements, give speeches, interviews, all that stuff instead going through each player. Also think it looks good more like a real team event with captains but they don't have that much outcome on the match.

Hey Justin thanks for chiming in, I started this thread to get some dialogue going so that people would stop comparing the US to Europe in the context that they do. Competition is tough at all levels, Pro to Amateur. Sometimes it's easier to be an Armchair Quarterback than to actually be in the game. That's why I was wondering exactly was expected of the Captain, Coach and or Trainer.

Black Cat

 

[sjm]

The role of the captain, though partly administrative, is to prepare the team to succeed. Those who feel that establishing team unity and rallying the troops when December arrives is the job are demanding the bare minimum of the captain.

Justin Bergman's suggestion that the team might win if the match were replayed is being very generous. The last four Mosconi Cups have been losses of 11-2, 11-5, 11-7 and 11-3. That's 44-17, meaning Europe has won over 72% of the matches. In Wilson's three years, it has been 33-15, meaning Europe has won 69% of the matches, and Team USA has failed to carry any of the twelve individual days of competition. Hence, the better question is whether Team USA (as presently constituted) is capable of carrying a single day of Mosconi competition, not whether it is capable of winning a Mosconi Cup.

Justin Bergman, in my opinion, is the most complete player (no, not the best, just the most well-rounded --- obviously SVB is the best) we've got right now in America and probably requires less coaching than anyone. I saw his game several years ago and considered him a complete player then. If we had five Justin Bergmans, we'd have a shot. I can absolutely understand why Justin feels the way he does, but he fails to understand how much coaching some of the other members of Team USA needed.

Team USA's first order of business is to own the size of the gap between itself and Team Europe. Year after year, it's what might have been, but the results say that the gap is big and that it has grown of late.

Mark Wilson is and always has been a credit to pool in America. He is a mover and shaker in the world of pool, a trailblazer for young people who are serious about pool. Though Mark has stepped down as Mosconi coach, he remains one of the pillars of American pool. Justin's choice to defend him is admirable but truly unnecessary, for Mark remains a role model for all us who care about pool in America.

 

[mattp]

A good captain/coach should motivate the team. They should also organize practice sessions where players could learn from one another. They should figure out best match up scenarios and bet partners for doubles. On that note, they should teach how to communicate as doubles partners. And how the team should support players during singles matches. And develop a sense of camaraderie among the team.
A good captain should also set up practice sessions that mimic real life scenarios like nfl coaches do with loud noise whilst practicing to play the Sea hawks. They should(not sure they don't) practice with the same shot clock, on the same table and cloth, with the same rules, similar lighting, with motivational factors for winning.
A good captain should also deflect any negativity from the players and limit distractions.
Americans as a rule are very individualistic and that can be a strength but to discount the tangible benefits of a great coach/captain is being short-sighted. Again, using the nfl as an example...salary cap matters little when the patriots have better coaching. They are like Europe and the Jets are America.

 

[owll]

Thanks for reply to post justin.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

No, the captain don't pay us and he can't only give money to players that got wins. Matchroom pays us.

So, as coach he could not pay the best member 40%
2nd best member 25%
3rd best member 20%
4th best member 10%
5th best member 5%

Total =100%

He was going to pay 3 players that were flying over and not playing at all. During the 1st year controversy with Oscar, Shuff & Sossie

But, can't structure the team pay?

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[kollegedave]

Mosconi Captain / Team, Etc

1.) Whoever the US Captain is, he will be at a disadvantage if he is forced to accept SVB as a player on the team. Over large sample, SVB has proven that he does not play well in this event. Why should he keep his position on the team? Mark Wilson got fired, because he lost. We should apply the same standard to the players that actually play bad in the event.
Part of what makes SVB exceptional is his break, which lets him get in dead punch, as he gets more chances at an open table than his opponent. The format of the Mosconi Cup is designed to minimize the skill set of SVB. Obviously, if the event was winner break 10 ball with a Magic Rack; he should be the first pick.

2.) The format of the MC rewards kicking, safety play, and accurate cueing. Since the U.S. loses constantly (by WIDE margins) under the current way of picking players, we should be released from this to pick the people we want to send. I don't know how this should be done, but the current way is no good...bar table events carrying Mosconi Cup points, etc. Because the MC format rewards kicking, safety play, etc., we should require that the players sent are versed in multiple disciplines. Our best player this year (Justin) is a great one pocket player and rotation player.

3.) I do think that the Captain should be an American and pro-level player. Tony Robles and Jeremy Jones seem like good choices to me. Whoever it is, it needs to be a person that the pro-players will listen to and respect. However, I wonder why someone would accept the position as a coach / captain going forward? Matchroom will pick 3 of your 5 players a month before, and if your team loses, then you will get fired and you will get half of the pool internet saying you deserve to get fired. That sounds fantastic.

4.) According to FargoRate, the US should always lose. We simply don't have the players. Accordingly, we should bring players that do have something extra that Fargo Rate does not measure maybe as well...cross discipline success under pressure and youth. Some players that I think should get some serious consideration for the next team are:

Josh Roberts
Oscar Dominguez
Danny Smith
Billy Thorpe
Chris Bartram
Scott Frost
Jeremy Sossei

If I got to pick the team it would be:

Justin Bergman
Skylar Woodward
Josh Roberts
Oscar Dominguez
Billy Thorpe

 

[Kid Dynomite]

1.) Whoever the US Captain is, he will be at a disadvantage if he is forced to accept SVB as a player on the team. Over large sample, SVB has proven that he does not play well in this event. Why should he keep his position on the team? Mark Wilson got fired, because he lost. We should apply the same standard to the players that actually play bad in the event.
Part of what makes SVB exceptional is his break, which lets him get in dead punch, as he gets more chances at an open table than his opponent. The format of the Mosconi Cup is designed to minimize the skill set of SVB. Obviously, if the event was winner break 10 ball with a Magic Rack; he should be the first pick.

2.) The format of the MC rewards kicking, safety play, and accurate cueing. Since the U.S. loses constantly (by WIDE margins) under the current way of picking players, we should be released from this to pick the people we want to send. I don't know how this should be done, but the current way is no good...bar table events carrying Mosconi Cup points, etc. Because the MC format rewards kicking, safety play, etc., we should require that the players sent are versed in multiple disciplines. Our best player this year (Justin) is a great one pocket player and rotation player.

3.) I do think that the Captain should be an American and pro-level player. Tony Robles and Jeremy Jones seem like good choices to me. Whoever it is, it needs to be a person that the pro-players will listen to and respect. However, I wonder why someone would accept the position as a coach / captain going forward? Matchroom will pick 3 of your 5 players a month before, and if your team loses, then you will get fired and you will get half of the pool internet saying you deserve to get fired. That sounds fantastic.

4.) According to FargoRate, the US should always lose. We simply don't have the players. Accordingly, we should bring players that do have something extra that Fargo Rate does not measure maybe as well...cross discipline success under pressure and youth. Some players that I think should get some serious consideration for the next team are:

Josh Roberts
Oscar Dominguez
Danny Smith
Billy Thorpe
Chris Bartram
Scott Frost
Jeremy Sossei

If I got to pick the team it would be:

Justin Bergman
Skylar Woodward
Josh Roberts
Oscar Dominguez
Billy Thorpe

Justin Hall
Jerome Jones
Rodney Morris
Earl Strickland

Last spot is a battle between

Bergman
Shuff
Sossei
Skyler
Oscar
Svb
Thorpe
Roberts
Mcminn
Wilkie

Winner take all!

The above have exceptional records in the cup and earned it based on past cup performances.

Every one else can earn a spot. They play poorly and the spot is not safe. Play well and assured on the team next year!

Just how I would do it!

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Carolina_Giant]

While I did not get a very long opportunity to talk with Niels Feijen or Captain Johan several years ago (2013 I went to the US Open and got to spend a very quick few minutes with Feijen, not really any time with Captain Johan), I got to watch the eventual members of Team Europe and Captain Johan very closely through the week.

However, I sat behind Johan for a Niels match on day 4. Johan had a HUGE binder with him. He had lists of players, performances to address not only mechanics wise but mentally as well. He had routines written down, and he watched the Euros like a hawk. He seemed to make notes on nearly everything, whether it went well or poorly, to talk to each player about at a later time.

While they were speaking in Dutch so I don't know exactly what was said, I also saw Johan talking to Nick Vandenburg in the stands. He was earnest, but had a warmth coming off of him. Vandenburg was visibly frustrated, but very quickly calmed down and you could sense a connection between the player and his eventual captain.

To me, this is what Johan brought that maximized the talent of his players, in a similar vein to what Wilson has brought, though not with the same amount of success. Johan managed the psyche of his team, got them to play for something greater than themselves, made them believe they could beat anybody, and gave his players tailored notes to help each one succeed to the best of their potential. It was a full time job for Johan, and he executed it to perfection, literally and figuratively.

Varner had a similar talent with team USA. From what I remember, CJ Wiley also had some success in this area. What's been missing (from an outside perspective at least) is that ability for a USA captain to unite their team and light their fire.

Make no mistake about it, Niels, Vandenburg, Boyes, and even Souquet and Immonen, they have fire in their bellies when it comes to pool. I am almost certain that each player on the American team this year and in Wilson's tenure has that fire as well, but they seem to have trouble accessing it as a group. Europe takes six fires (including the captain) and unites them into a firestorm. USA often has two or three fires burning separately, but not always together. These are just some things I've seen over the years. If I'm wrong or really missed the mark, I'm happy to change any of the above.

 

[AtLarge]

1.) Whoever the US Captain is, he will be at a disadvantage if he is forced to accept SVB as a player on the team. Over large sample, SVB has proven that he does not play well in this event. Why should he keep his position on the team? ...

Shane has played on 10 Mosconi Cup teams (2007-2016).

The Team USA record in matches for those 10 years is 65 wins and 106 losses. Ignoring the teams match each year, that's 161 matches, of which Shane participated in 50. The records are as follows:

Team USA ..... 31-59 singles (34% winning percentage), 30-41 doubles (42%)

Matches SVB was in ..... 10-15 singles (40%), 11-14 doubles (44%)

Matches SVB was not in ..... 21-44 singles (32%), 19-27 doubles (41%)


Team USA's record over the past 10 years is slightly better for the matches that involved Shane than for the matches that did not.

 

[sjm]

Part of what makes SVB exceptional is his break, which lets him get in dead punch, as he gets more chances at an open table than his opponent. The format of the Mosconi Cup is designed to minimize the skill set of SVB. Obviously, if the event was winner break 10 ball with a Magic Rack; he should be the first pick.

Very astute, Dave.

The format, though not designed to minimize the skill set of SVB, does, to some extent, accomplish it, by increasing reliance on after-the-break skills. The same can be said of Dechaine, America's other huge breaker whose after-the-break skills aren't as strong as they might be.

The format of the MC rewards kicking, safety play, and accurate cueing. Since the U.S. loses constantly (by WIDE margins) under the current way of picking players, we should be released from this to pick the people we want to send. I don't know how this should be done, but the current way is no good...bar table events carrying Mosconi Cup points, etc. Because the MC format rewards kicking, safety play, etc., we should require that the players sent are versed in multiple disciplines. Our best player this year (Justin) great one pocket player and rotation player.

Mostly well judged, Dave, but it's not this simple.

SVB has won the DCC one pocket, he has been second at the DCC bank pool, and even came second in the Dragon World 14.1 event. By every reasonable standard, SVB is a great all around talent well versed in multiple disciplines. In rotation pool, he can string racks better than anyone, due to his huge break, and his "packages" inflict some psychological damage on opponents who must sit in the chair for long stretches. Who can forget the US Open semifinal in October in which Jayson Shaw went to the chair with a 6-0 lead and didn't come back to the table until Shane had pulled to within 6-5?

Dechaine has been second in the DCC one pocket, has a top five in the Dragon World 14.1 event, and is quite skilled at three cushion. He, too, must be judged a fine all-around player skilled in multiple disciplines, and, like SVB, often relies on being able to string racks together.

In rotation pool, both Shane and Mike shine brightest with winner breaks and either a) break from the box or b) a tough illegal break rule. At the Mosconi Cup, they get neither, and it makes them rely on some other skills which are less refined, skills in which they have, seemingly, not improved in the last few years.

.... so there is more to it than getting great all around players.

I really don't think we sent the wrong team, I just feel that our team failed to learn the lessons of Mosconi Cups past, which should have motivated some of them to work on certain parts of their games. Bergman, though a far less formidable breaker, is a more complete nine-ball player than either Shane or Mike, and perhaps they could learn something from him. If we had a player captain, Bergman would be the best possible choice.

 

[lfigueroa]

I really don't think we sent the wrong team, I just feel that our team failed to learn the lessons of Mosconi Cups past, which should have motivated some of them to work on certain parts of their games. Bergman, though a far less formidable breaker, is a more complete nine-ball player than either Shane or Mike, and perhaps they could learn something from him. If we had a player captain, Bergman would be the best possible choice.

This ^^^^^

Well said, Stu.

Lou Figueroa

 

[kollegedave]

Very astute, Dave.

The format, though not designed to minimize the skill set of SVB, does, to some extent, accomplish it, by increasing reliance on after-the-break skills. The same can be said of Dechaine, America's other huge breaker whose after-the-break skills aren't as strong as they might be.



Mostly well judged, Dave, but it's not this simple.

SVB has won the DCC one pocket, he has been second at the DCC bank pool, and even came second in the Dragon World 14.1 event. By every reasonable standard, SVB is a great all around talent well versed in multiple disciplines. In rotation pool, he can string racks better than anyone, due to his huge break, and his "packages" inflict some psychological damage on opponents who must sit in the chair for long stretches. Who can forget the US Open semifinal in October in which Jayson Shaw went to the chair with a 6-0 lead and didn't come back to the table until Shane had pulled to within 6-5?

Dechaine has been second in the DCC one pocket, has a top five in the Dragon World 14.1 event, and is quite skilled at three cushion. He, too, must be judged a fine all-around player skilled in multiple disciplines, and, like SVB, often relies on being able to string racks together.

In rotation pool, both Shane and Mike shine brightest with winner breaks and either a) break from the box or b) a tough illegal break rule. At the Mosconi Cup, they get neither, and it makes them rely on some other skills which are less refined, skills in which they have, seemingly, not improved in the last few years.

.... so there is more to it than getting great all around players.

I really don't think we sent the wrong team, I just feel that our team failed to learn the lessons of Mosconi Cups past, which should have motivated some of them to work on certain parts of their games. Bergman, though a far less formidable breaker, is a more complete nine-ball player than either Shane or Mike, and perhaps they could learn something from him. If we had a player captain, Bergman would be the best possible choice.

I will concede SJM that you know more about Dechaine's game then I do. I will also concede that finishing runner up at the DCC One Pocket means something important. However, at Dechaine's level, a race to 3 in one pocket is very short. Dechaine does not strike me as a player particularly versed in more than one discipline, and he does strike me as a player that, as you say, gets mileage out of making his opponent sit for multiple racks. Thus, he would not be among my choices now for the MC event.

I agree that Shane is very accomplished in all disciplines. However, he doesn't play well at the MC. He just doesn't.

While long action match pressure is not the same as the MC; American players that are competition hardened, tend to be hardened with long sets of one pocket. Thus, I think we should consider sending a team of players that are skilled at 9-ball, but keep themselves "in the grease", and as I see it, this will mostly be players that are playing a lot of one pocket.

One thing I think all of us missed (or most of us, or just me) is that in recent years Oscar has matched up twice against Justin in long races of 9ball. I believe Justin won both times, but Oscar played well, and has been refining his game in competition continuously...it would appear. Count me in for a team that would include Oscar and Justin.

kollegedave

 

[Black Cat 5791]

Post Deleted

 

[sjm]

I will concede SJM that you know more about Dechaine's game then I do. I will also concede that finishing runner up at the DCC One Pocket means something important. However, at Dechaine's level, a race to 3 in one pocket is very short. Dechaine does not strike me as a player particularly versed in more than one discipline, and he does strike me as a player that, as you say, gets mileage out of making his opponent sit for multiple racks. Thus, he would not be among my choices now for the MC event.

I agree that Shane is very accomplished in all disciplines. However, he doesn't play well at the MC. He just doesn't.

While long action match pressure is not the same as the MC; American players that are competition hardened, tend to be hardened with long sets of one pocket. Thus, I think we should consider sending a team of players that are skilled at 9-ball, but keep themselves "in the grease", and as I see it, this will mostly be players that are playing a lot of one pocket.

One thing I think all of us missed (or most of us, or just me) is that in recent years Oscar has matched up twice against Justin in long races of 9ball. I believe Justin won both times, but Oscar played well, and has been refining his game in competition continuously...it would appear. Count me in for a team that would include Oscar and Justin.

kollegedave

Sorry, but a race to three has always been plenty enough to get the cream to the top at the DCC One Pocket. In fact, I can't even think of one surprise winner in the seventeen years of the event. To win any of the three major events at the Derby, you need to win at least 12 matches against at most one loss, and the last five matches are typically against very fine players, often specialists. Even a top five is very hard to come by in the DCC one pocket, the best test of the year in the discipline. Whether you think so or not, Mike has accomplishments across numerous disciplines that establish him as multidimensional in his skills.

Also, those who suggest that SVB is not a good short-race player are ignoring his case history. SVB was just as dominant in the DCC nine ball when it was race to seven. Similarly, Mike also has two top threes in the DCC nine ball ... but DCC is winner breaks.

SVB is the best long race player in the world and Mike is a great long race player, too. Did you know that in 2015, Mike beat Strickland 25-11 and he also beat SVB by 25-24? Yes, those wins are way, way, way, more impressive than Oscar's "respectable" losses against Bergman.

The history speaks for itself, Dave. SVB and Mike are multidiscipline talents and both have very impressive accomplishments in both short race play and long race play, but the alternate-break Mosconi takes some of the bullets out of their guns by depriving them of the means by which they so often build match-winning momentum. That said, some players are more capable than others of adjusting, and neither Mike nor SVB has adjusted well to the realities and rhythms of the Mosconi. Screaming fans, bucket pockets, alternate break, commercial breaks ... the Mosconi is the most exciting event on the pool calendar but it's different than other events.