Mosconi on aiming .

Gosh. I try to stay out of these things, but after reading 7 pages, I just have to say something. Quoting myself quoting Byrne quoting Mcgoorty talking about Hoppe, in another thread:



I know it's not about aiming as it's being discussed here, but it has the same flavor. Aiming systems are guidelines, at best. Everybody actually plays by feel, no matter what they think they are doing. Sometimes aiming systems hinder people who get too attached to them.

And yet Willie Hoppe signed off on it? Tjorbdorn Blohmdahl said in an interview once that he, 'like most three cushion players', learned aiming systems as a reference but that he, like most, does not use them in competition because the patterns are so ingrained as to be natural to him at his level. (major paraphrasing here).

McGoorty's quote is hearsay at best. He also said that Fats couldn't play at all and that there was a line of players willing to swim a river of shit to play Fats and we know that in fact was not true.

The book was highly entertaining though.

The whole point of the pro-aiming system crowd is that they exist for anyone who cares to try them. The whole point of the "aiming systems are bogus" crowd is that no one should ever try them.

These two camps will have a very difficult time coming together because of this fundamental difference.

And at the end of the day of course it's all "feel" in the sense that the human being having no measuring device that is accurately marked has to settle on his best estimate using the objects he does have available. Ultimately he has to get into the shooting position and pull the trigger based on a feeling of confidence using whatever techniques he employs.

Many years ago there was a pool cue on the market called the Sniper.

It was being sold for $2500.

This cue had an elaborate set up with multiple lasers. Using the instructions one could actually set all these lasers and get a 100% shooting line for direct shots and for bank shots. It really worked. But when you did all that and finally picked up the cue to make the shot there was no feeling at all. It was bulky and complicated and pretty much a pain in the ass. It was a marvel of engineering though and the posters had a real babe on it.

The point being that we humans use a club to make one ball hit another ball to send that ball into a small space. No matter how you do it there is going to be feel and estimation involved. The whole point of systems advocates is to introduce methods that reduce the amount of estimation involved. They find that by using particular methods they can improve their accuracy and simply let the world know that it works for them.

What is so goddamn wrong about that?

If I am at the pool room whacking away at bank shots using the trial and error method and Freddy Bentevegna comes up and says "hey, let me show you something that might help you to make those shots more accurately" then I am going to listen to what he has to say and try it and if it works I will keep it and if it doesn't I will not use it. Is that so hard for people to understand?

Is is so hard to understand that good honest people have spent time figuring out "other" methods than good old Ghost Ball to aim with? It's not these people have sat around thinking oh gee let me foist this method on everyone that I know doesn't work but I will get enough suckers to believe it and get filthy rich.........

We are ALL people here, people. If some guy spends his time on the table figuring out a bunch of methods that work to get players making more shots then WHY is this a problem????

Of course it's all feel EXCEPT for the results. You don't feel like you made the shot. You know that you did or did not by where the object ball is after you shot the cue ball.

So everything leading up to hitting the cue ball is in debate. Everything AFTER hitting the cue ball is not. The ball either went or it didn't.

Unless the player is deliberately LYING when they say that by using xyz system they get better results I think it's pretty safe to say that most of us would be alright to believe it.

There are no blind alleys here. There are only methods to try out which work well for some people and not so well for others. Ghost Ball does not work well for me. Why not? Well let's see I have bad eyesight which comes from not having glasses until I was eight. I had laser surgery in 2000 and while my vision is better I still have a slight bit of blurriness in one eye. So when I try hard to use GB I still miss balls.

When I use the aiming method I use now I make more balls. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I still get my ass handed to me by people who use GB or pure point-and-shoot methods. But at the same time I also win my share against those people as well using what I use.

I know with 100% certainty that using the aiming system I use has helped me to find the right aiming line in critical game situations. I know that getting down on the shot with the feeling that the line is right has helped me to focus 100% on the delivery which has resulted in game and match and money winning shots.

So that's my personal testimonial. I don't really give a shit if any other person on the planet Earth ever tries what I use because I have it and it works for me. Every chance I get I will tell people it works because that's how I am and they can choose to try it or not.

I love the way pool feels when I am making balls and running out.
 
Please, "fast typer person", do not miss the three prededing posts...:D.:thumbup:

Don't worry about it "old grouchy person". I am sorry to inform you that we now have cars and don't have to walk uphill both ways to get to school anymore.
 
FINALLY, a sensible, intelligent post...Props to you sir..:thumbup:

PS..Obviously, at least ONE, APA3 player, (a regular on here) has been "hindered" for years now...:D (Name via PM only)

Well if you are talking about me then you know you have all the action you want with me playing as an APA3.

In fact let's just do this. Put it to the board as to what spot in one pocket would be fair between an APA3 against the best current one pocket players and I will take that weight for as much money as I can get up. I ma fairly confident that I can find some backers to be on my side of it as well.

I know your skills are all gone by watching you play so I won't even bother to ask you anymore. You can pick your horse and handicap him accordingly.

Or you can just shut up with the weak insults if you are not willing to put your money where your mouth is.
 
Here are four illustrations from Joe Davis's book about how he aimed. He emphasizes in the text to pay attention to the overlap in the third picture where the cue ball has replaced the ghost ball. (He points out elsewhere that the ghost ball has to be placed to allow for throw, although he doesn't call it that.)

JoeDavis 001a.jpg

JoeDavis 001b.jpg

JoeDavis 002a.jpg

JoeDavis 002b.jpg
 
Uh...well...gee. Let me tell you about my aiming system. It's fresh in my memory, because I just taught it to my wife a couple of years ago. I'd put a object ball on the table in one of the more common positions, and ask her to make it. After she did it a couple of times, I'd move the cue ball a little and ask her to do it again. Bunches of adjustments later, she pretty well knew what to do, without any aiming systems, DVDs, books, etc. To shorten up the story a bit, I did this with her for several common, and not-so-common positions. As she got better, I'd ask her to make the cue ball go to different places on the table after the hit, with hints like, "Try top here", "No, that should've been left english". Now, she can't beat Earl, but in a very short period of time, she's become quite a good player. Every so often, she asks me how to do something, but largely, she's her own instructor now, and does for herself, the kinds of things we did together.

I know I'm now supposed to offer anybody the 8, for any amount of money, to prove that I know what I'm talking about...but I think seeing my wife do so well, is all the vindication or reward I need.
 
I disagree, and it's certainly not true for everybody. Aiming is just that, aiming. It has nothing to do with actually shooting. Shooting is by feel. Too many confuse the two. While they are interrelated, they are still separate, distinct parts of the whole shot.
Well, I've always considered aiming the act of getting the stick along the right line to shoot the shot. Is it now defined some other way?
 
Well, there was the book for $150.

Would that be the book that weighs 85-lbs. and has about 1400 shot diagrams in it, Bob? Yes, I'm exaggerating some, but not really that much. If that is the book you are talking about, then yes, it was not worth the $150 I paid for it. But I only bought it for two reasons: it was endorsed by a top WPBA professional, and the BCA certified it to be a valuable training tool. Of course, the publisher had to pay $500 for that certification. And my guess would be that they probably came up $350 short of making that certification money back. :embarrassed2:

Roger
 
I realized there is one other area in which my aiming system is a big help: the 9-ball break. I've always had a weak break, unable to really develop any true power, but by adjusting my aiming system a little, I was able to overcome this limitation:

JayBreak-1.jpg

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you how I adjusted: I moved my wallet from my left back pocket to my right front pocket. Grant you--it's uncomfortable, but the sacrifice is well worth it.
 
Last edited:
Well, I've always considered aiming the act of getting the stick along the right line to shoot the shot. Is it now defined some other way?

That's how I define it. That's what Neil means as well. Shooting, the act of striking the cue ball, is a completely secondary act to aiming.

Think of it like this. Efren aims and I shoot. Or, I aim an Efren shoots.

Or better said to pay homage to Dick and his fetish over APA 3s, an APA 3 aims and Efren shoots? Or Efren aims and the APA3 shoots.

Which of those two scenarios would you prefer to bet on if you were forced to pick one?
 
Would that be the book that weighs 85-lbs. and has about 1400 shot diagrams in it, Bob? Yes, I'm exaggerating some, but not really that much. If that is the book you are talking about, then yes, it was not worth the $150 I paid for it. But I only bought it for two reasons: it was endorsed by a top WPBA professional, and the BCA certified it to be a valuable training tool. Of course, the publisher had to pay $500 for that certification. And my guess would be that they probably came up $350 short of making that certification money back. :embarrassed2:

Roger
My guess would be $200. :angry:
 
I realized there is one other area in which my aiming system is a big help: the 9-ball break. I've always had a weak break, unable to really develop any true power, but by adjusting my aiming system a little, I was able to overcome this limitation:

View attachment 201355

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you how I adjusted: I moved my wallet from my left back pocket to my right front pocket. Grant you--it's uncomfortable, but the sacrifice is worth it.

Hmm, I found that by using an aiming system I am able to get a square hit on the head ball and so my break is much better and more consistent.

I would try your wallet method though if I carried one since it's free and easy to try. I mean since you were kind enough to share it with us then I should give it a try if I thought I needed some more help on the break. If I do need to try it can I send you a PM and ask you for more help if I am not able to understand it based on the free description you gave us here? I know some other system guys offered their time for free to anyone who would pick up the phone. And that seemed to work well for most of them judging by the glowing testimonials given by the students on here who did call.

I probably wouldn't buy your wallet method though unless you had a little more substance like maybe a DVD showing me the exact procedure and a professional who endorses it and maybe some top instructors who also teach it and of course your willingness to entertain follow up questions. Those things are a bit more convincing for me before I spend my money.
 
Please describe "feels" for me. Are you a latent feel player, after all? ;)

Just kidding, John. You can go ahead and kill me now, if you want.

Roger

Sure, When I am facing a fairly tough cut shot for $3000 and I use the edge of the object ball and the center of the cue ball as the starting reference point, step in and bring my cue tip to center ball, take a few warmup strokes and hit the cue ball nice and solid and watch the object ball head straight down the rail just a hair's width away from the rail and drop cleanly in the pocket I feel a sense of elation and joy wash over me.

I bask in the adulation of the spectators who were rooting for me and feel a tinge of superiority over the ones who were rooting against me and whose stunned faces belie their disappointment that I didn't dog that critical shot.

That's how making balls feels to me. I also know how it feels to dog it for the cash and I prefer the former.

Thank you Hal Houle and aiming systems. I appreciate that you took so much time to develop something that works well for me. I thought you were a crazy old man and wanted to get away from you but you showed me something I hadn't ever seen before and now almost ten years later I am still enjoying the benefits of your aiming methods as I make great shots in clutch situations.
 
Hmm, I found that by using an aiming system I am able to get a square hit on the head ball and so my break is much better and more consistent.

Exactly what I showed in my post! Thank you for the endorsement. Does this mean I can use you on my DVD and book cover? I know you found it independently, but since it supports what I'm selling, I hope you'll let me use it....

Of course, it's only part of the system. Did you also agree with what I posted in the one prior to that one? It'd be a really big help if you did.
 
Here are four illustrations from Joe Davis's book about how he aimed. He emphasizes in the text to pay attention to the overlap in the third picture where the cue ball has replaced the ghost ball. (He points out elsewhere that the ghost ball has to be placed to allow for throw, although he doesn't call it that.)

View attachment 201351

View attachment 201352

View attachment 201353

View attachment 201354

Thank you Bob. It is very much appreciated that you shared these with us.
 
Sure, When I am facing a fairly tough cut shot for $3000 and I use the edge of the object ball and the center of the cue ball as the starting reference point, step in and bring my cue tip to center ball, take a few warmup strokes and hit the cue ball nice and solid and watch the object ball head straight down the rail just a hair's width away from the rail and drop cleanly in the pocket I feel a sense of elation and joy wash over me.

I bask in the adulation of the spectators who were rooting for me and feel a tinge of superiority over the ones who were rooting against me and whose stunned faces belie their disappointment that I didn't dog that critical shot.

That's how making balls feels to me. I also know how it feels to dog it for the cash and I prefer the former.

Thank you Hal Houle and aiming systems. I appreciate that you took so much time to develop something that works well for me. I thought you were a crazy old man and wanted to get away from you but you showed me something I hadn't ever seen before and now almost ten years later I am still enjoying the benefits of your aiming methods as I make great shots in clutch situations.

When I said, "You can kill ne now," I didn't think you would try to make me laugh myself to death. Oh well, I did ask for it, didn't I. :embarrassed2:

Roger
 
John you are starting to get carried away again...If you can dredge up that thread, (that you probably had yanked)...
I will give you 10K, if you can find ANYWHERE, I ever called Darren, or anyone else a 'LIAR'...So what does that make YOU ?
I offered you a little bit of an olive branch, in my previous post...but you were busy hammering away on another tirade... So if it's all the same to you, I'll just pass on your little pissing contests...I really feel they are beneath me anyway.

They make me feel like I am the only healthy person in a "Special Olympics" race. I don't want you to accuse me of taking advantage of you.

Don't worry about it old-timer, you couldn't take advantage of a sex-doll. Keep your olive branches, they never worked as a peace-keeping system anyway.

You only enjoy give and take where you give shit and don't take any. Don't you have any better material than to bring out the "you're a retard/cripple" stuff? Didn't that go out of fashion in the 80s?

So once again, and please read this slowly, if you say Darren does not use a system and he says he does then one of you is not telling the truth.

Since it would presumed that you would contend that your statement is the truth then Darren's must be a lie.

One who lies is a liar.

Since you forcefully made your statement without any disclaimer that you THINK Darren is not using a system I take it that you wish the reader to take your statement as one of fact. Is this so?

If so then perhaps you would care to tell us all how you know that Darren Appleton, the current US Open Champion, does not use any aiming system when he plays?

And how do you reconcile that with Darren's clear statement that he DOES use an aiming system? I am just a simple guy and when someone I look up to, someone I can actually talk to and look in the eye, tells me he uses the aiming system he endorses then I choose to believe him.

So when someone else comes along and says that he does not use it then I have to make a decision as to whether I think the Champion is lying or the other guy is. To me when you state clearly that a person does not do what he clearly says he does then that equates to you calling that person a liar.

You don't have to actually say Darren is a liar if you state that he is lying. The act of lying makes one a liar.

So, tell us all what you mean. I am all ears to hear how you justify telling us that Darren does not do what he claims to.

(please don't bring up Jennifer Anniston again unless you can get her to come on this forum and talk to us)
 
Exactly what I showed in my post! Thank you for the endorsement. Does this mean I can use you on my DVD and book cover? I know you found it independently, but since it supports what I'm selling, I hope you'll let me use it....

Of course, it's only part of the system. Did you also agree with what I posted in the one prior to that one? It'd be a really big help if you did.

Certainly. Although my endorsement would not really be worth anything. As you can see from this forum even when professional players come on here and endorse something they are called liars. So I don't think that an APA 3's testimonial would do much. Of course I'd also like to see your system in detail before endorsing it just to be sure that it's something I can stand behind as instructively beneficial.

I am not sure what you posted prior, you mean the system of trial and error you let your wife use? I can't sign off on that one because it is much too broad in scope and is far too hard to really use effectively with all people.

In my shop I teach people the proper techniques of leather working as their basis and when they have a new idea I tell them to try it but to not forget the foundational principles. Thus the trial and error method is much more successful for us because we don't have to do quite as much adjusting and "remembering". Using a solid system to guide us in the joining of leather pieces allows us the flexibility to join any two leather pieces even if we never used that type of leather before.

The same applies to the systematic approach to aiming. Given that all shots in a range are effectively treated the same reduces the amount of trial and error required. So therefore my wife is able to step to the table facing a shot she has never before tried in her life and has a decent chance to make it using the system I taught her. Therefore I decline to put my name on the pure T&E method of learning to aim in pool. Not to say it doesn't work because it obviously does. It just does not work as well as other methods I know, in my experience.
 
Don't worry about it old-timer, you couldn't take advantage of a sex-doll. Keep your olive branches, they never worked as a peace-keeping system anyway.

You only enjoy give and take where you give shit and don't take any. Don't you have any better material than to bring out the "you're a retard/cripple" stuff? Didn't that go out of fashion in the 80s?

So once again, and please read this slowly, if you say Darren does not use a system and he says he does then one of you is not telling the truth.

Since it would presumed that you would contend that your statement is the truth then Darren's must be a lie.

One who lies is a liar.

Since you forcefully made your statement without any disclaimer that you THINK Darren is not using a system I take it that you wish the reader to take your statement as one of fact. Is this so?

If so then perhaps you would care to tell us all how you know that Darren Appleton, the current US Open Champion, does not use any aiming system when he plays?

And how do you reconcile that with Darren's clear statement that he DOES use an aiming system? I am just a simple guy and when someone I look up to, someone I can actually talk to and look in the eye, tells me he uses the aiming system he endorses then I choose to believe him.

So when someone else comes along and says that he does not use it then I have to make a decision as to whether I think the Champion is lying or the other guy is. To me when you state clearly that a person does not do what he clearly says he does then that equates to you calling that person a liar.

You don't have to actually say Darren is a liar if you state that he is lying. The act of lying makes one a liar.

So, tell us all what you mean. I am all ears to hear how you justify telling us that Darren does not do what he claims to.

(please don't bring up Jennifer Anniston again unless you can get her to come on this forum and talk to us)
This thread is yet another example of JB hijacking every single thread on aiming and turning it into a train wreck.
 
Back
Top