mosconi reveries ...

sunnyone

cum grano salis
Silver Member
(i am posting this simultaneously in az and onepocket.org. well, not exactly simultaneously because i can’t quite figure out how to do that. let’s call the process proximus maximus, which is a faux latin term i just made up!)

even though the mosconi cup doesn’t include one-pocket, i just love these international games!

for some reason, i become much more of a ‘nervous nellie’ while watching the partners matches than the singletons. anyone else feel that way?

for me, i think it’s because i hate screwing up my teammate’s turn. let me count the ways i flub the dub: i miss the shot, i leave her hooked, i scratch, etc.

fortunately, the mosconi cup provides me some considerable quantum of solace when i see some of the top players in the world choke. (ego alert ... yep, i’m talking about you, you mosconi guys!)

further, i think that ‘choke’ is an accurate and descriptive word.

the commentators talk about ‘pressure.’

we can all identify with how that specific duress-noun plays out when we watch world champs miss relatively easy shots. and then further observe them as they miss relatively simple position opportunities.

(on the positive side, it’s also so uplifting to see some of the best players in the universe successfully execute ever-more challenging shots in that same pressure cooker environment!)

with the short races to six, anyone can beat anyone ...

this year’s rookies -- dechaine and melling (how i wish the melling parents hadn’t named him ‘chris’ ... the pronunciation so often morphs into ‘smelling!’) -- have each had some terrific moments.

further mosconi musings ...

> there is not very much we need to say about the mosconi attire ... tacky patches are tacky patches. no matter which team, nor which side of the atlantic sports them on their upper torso garments. tawdry breeds ... well, tawdry.

> i had forgotten about that girl ref -- she is marvelous! she can laser out the sternest looks! although i believe she had more order-maintaining duties last year in york hall. are euro-fans more unruly?

> this year ... why did they abandon the magic rack after the first day?

> also ... didn’t that first-day diamond table have a ball-return function? if i’m not mistaken, the pockets now retain the orbs?

> the stream graphics are terrific! i love the dissolve function as each ball is pocketed. i wish we could do that with one-pocket. show, say, the 14-ball slurped into the ether as it is potted.

> plus, the mosconi running game-count and the regular postings of the overall match standings are most helpful. as is the ‘order of play’ for the daily scheduled competitions -- past, present and future, red v. blue. well done!

(by the way, stellar computer graphics aren’t that expensive. a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down the pants!)

> shot clock ... yes! it seems fair, it keeps the action moving along, it occasionally adds to the tension. i don’t know what the one-pocket equivalent might be? (certainly not 30 seconds! but perhaps a game clock, or a match timepiece ... tick, tick, ticking along?)

> i would never name names ... but isn’t that one euro-guy awfully cute! (there are also one or two boyos who might well qualify for the all-ugly team if one were to score the proceedings in such a petty way, which, of course, one would never do.) is there a baldness requirement to qualify for team europe? is so, why?

> last year, for me, there was one pivotal and defining shot. one of our good guys -- in a key game -- snookered himself with, i believe, only two or three object balls left on the field of play.

this year there have been several exciting turning points. but i haven’t seen that singular ‘oh my gawd’ cardiac-paddle moment. perhaps this is because the contest was never that close?

(to have qualified, heart-wise, the match-changing shot must have come late in the contest, must have been physically or psychologically-pivotal and must have involved an heroic shot or a massive blunder. ((see sunny rule 22b, subsection f.)) )

> why aren’t there any girls in the mosconi cup? jasmin, anyone? jeanette? if those two were on the teams, i bet the interest levels, the viewership, the chatter, would all be up!

> has anyone else noticed how the advertising commercials are well spaced and well done? not intrusive, yet quite creative? if watching them is the entry fee to observe international pool at this level ... well i am so in! okay, so the british accent makes them sound smarter.

> the commentary is quite good. some of it might seem to overstate the obvious; but if the mosconi cup attracts new, and relatively unschooled viewers (such as i am!), then explanations, and over-explanations, of the basics, are both understandable and they are appreciated.

in that vein ... i am so enjoying the wink-and-nudge references. such as when a shot rattles its way in: ‘it wiped its feet at the doorstep.’ ‘it went in the tradesman’s entrance.’

wry, with a european nod.

> there are a couple of stellar futurists in az who go to considerable lengths to allow us peons to access some of the most desirable billiard streams in the universe.

i won’t name ‘cmb’ and ‘up’ by name because they are modest chaps.

(nota bene, boys: your -- cmb’s and up’s -- appearances in onepocket.org are now expected. be there or be square! two splendid venues -- az and one-pocket -- continue to welcome you.)

all of the above musings, random and pointless as they are, are of course, minor notions.

the major concern is, as all of the pool world appreciates, the chat function.

i wasn’t able to find a stream that allowed me to share my real-time wisdom with the real-time world of mosconi cup viewers.

it seemed almost unnatural, if not illegal, for me not to be able to comment as the matches progressed.

first amendment principles may well come into play.

any constitutional attorneys in here?

observing the letter of the law is my life,

sunny

p. s. in a fascinating sidebar discussion, one of the moderators was asked: ‘would team usa have been better off with earl strickland on the squad?’ his shorthand answer was ... ‘no, the future of american pool is with svb and mike d.’

hmm, the future is the future.

but ... it’s interesting to think about the pearl’s passion, his disruption capabilities and the overall influence he would have exerted upon this year’s teams. as well as his skill in clutch situations.

yes?

no?

maybe so?
 
Interesting post- well said!!!! As one who just landed back home from being there in Vegas, some of your observations make me go hmmm (in an introspective way).

When I get time, hopefully tomorrow, I'd too like to take the opportunity to place some musings... And some experiences I had there. Mine were a bit "different" perhaps, as I sat with the Euro's - due to short seating and late arrival on Saturday and Sunday. I spoke with a very candid, happy captain - Johan for a good 30 minutes shortly after the last ball, it was a VERY interesting conversation. And the pic's taken at the Euro post party I literally happened upon at MGM.. I just wish they were with "team USA". The Euro's treated us like best buds. Daz kept passing the pints, Chris and his Dad were amazing. Their kinsmanship was on a level... Their following was impressive - jolly good chaps.

Perhaps the most enjoyable 3 days of my life.

USA through and through! But my hats off to the Euro's, my appreciation of "them" is cemented, and difficult to express (for fear of getting shot, lol).
 
(i am posting this simultaneously in az and onepocket.org. well, not exactly simultaneously because i can’t quite figure out how to do that. let’s call the process proximus maximus, which is a faux latin term i just made up!)

even though the mosconi cup doesn’t include one-pocket, i just love these international games!

sunny

yes?

no?

maybe so?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunnyperson,

Forgive me for not quoting your entire post, as I was afraid it would max out my entire memory bank allotment..(for the year)... ..Your observations, from a feminine, novice (your words) were quite good..considering same.

Like you, I thought the presentation by "Match Room" was a first class effort.. Everything went off almost as smooth as a professional ESPN production. The asthetics and setting were first class, as was the camera work...I'm quite sure they had it 'catered' by "pro's" in those fields...Even the commentary was pretty good..(kudos to Jerry and Jay)

I don't know what it will take, for team USA, to ever dominate again...based on their deviciveness, and petty squables..PRIOR to even the first match. It seems that way, much more often than not.... I also feel that we have now achieved parity...(if not becoming a slight underdog)

Also, it becomes obvious, very early on, that the Euro's are simply more comfortable with team events. They are a very cohesive unit (and most are good friend's) with a lot of very good player's, who have faith, and respect, in each others skill.

It appears we have (maybe) one and a half players, who could feel as comfortable (as is possible).. in a heads up short match, with ANY of the Euro's...and those few guys seem to play their 'medium speed' most of the time, (at least in the Mosconi Cup) while lacking confidence in their partner, in the doubles match-ups.

Its very hard to fake 'comraderie' or 'unity'...it is either there, or it isn't. The Euro's, the Asian's and the Phillipino's, all seem to have it in spades... As I see it, that seems to be the USA's biggest shortcoming...Sad but true !..

Duckperson
 
Last edited:
I think you nailed it

Dick,

I think you nailed it. There is a Team Europe. We assemble some players but they aren't a team. Recent threads and images show the the people from the Phillipines getting together, playing pool, socializing in a garage, just enjoying each other's company. Wonder how often that happens? Wonder how often eight or ten of the US players get together for a social evening just because they enjoy each other's company?

For better or worse the US men aren't team players. Nothing in their background to encourage it, just the opposite in fact. Americans particularly the American male is heavily geared towards being a lone competitor. Only long years in a team environment changes that. Few pool players have spent that time in a team environment. Asians, Europeans, people from most parts of the world just seem to have stronger social groups than we do. Self reliance and independence are virtues in the US, team play is much more strongly encouraged in other societies.

Hu





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunnyperson,

Forgive me for not quoting your entire post, as I was afraid it would max out my entire memory bank allotment..(for the year)... ..Your observations, from a feminine, novice (your words) were quite good..considering same.

Like you, I thought the presentation by "Match Room" was a first class effort.. Everything went off almost as smooth as a professional ESPN production. The asthetics and setting were first class, as was the camera work...I'm quite sure they had it 'catered' by "pro's" in those fields...Even the commentary was pretty good..(kudos to Jerry and Jay)

I don't know what it will take, for team USA, to ever dominate again...based on their deviciveness, and petty squables..PRIOR to even the first match. It seems that way, much more often than not.... I also feel that we have now achieved parity...(if not becoming a slight underdog)

Also, it becomes obvious, very early on, that the Euro's are simply more comfortable with team events. They are a very cohesive unit (and most are good friend's) with a lot of very good player's, who have faith, and respect, in each others skill.

It appears we have (maybe) one and a half players, who could feel as comfortable (as is possible).. in a heads up short match, with ANY of the Euro's...and those few guys seem to play their 'medium speed' most of the time, (at least in the Mosconi Cup) while lacking confidence in their partner, in the doubles match-ups.

Its very hard to fake 'comraderie' or 'unity'...it is either there, or it isn't. The Euro's, the Asian's and the Phillipino's, all seem to have it in spades... As I see it, that seems to be the USA's biggest shortcoming...Sad but true !..

Duckperson
 
~~✄~~I have removed your wise remarks and will insert some wise cracks ... 'cause that's how I roll~~✄~~

> i would never name names ... but isn’t that one euro-guy awfully cute!

Permit me to hypothesize:
Niels.jpg
~~✄~~

> there are a couple of stellar futurists in az who go to considerable lengths to allow us peons to access some of the most desirable billiard streams in the universe.

i won’t name ‘cmb’ and ‘up’ by name because they are modest chaps.

If this were true we'd have won the lottery several times over by now.

~~✄~~

the major concern is, as all of the pool world appreciates, the chat function.

i wasn’t able to find a stream that allowed me to share my real-time wisdom with the real-time world of mosconi cup viewers.

it seemed almost unnatural, if not illegal, for me not to be able to comment as the matches progressed.

first amendment principles may well come into play.

any constitutional attorneys in here?

Sunnyone.png

I saved you some serious lawyer fees!
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Its very hard to fake 'comraderie' or 'unity'...it is either there, or it isn't. The Euro's, the Asian's and the Phillipino's, all seem to have it in spades... As I see it, that seems to be the USA's biggest shortcoming...Sad but true !..

Duckperson



That brings me some vague memory of an article I read more than 35 years ago in a Non USA sports magazine. The article talked about how one (?)Eastern European country or (?) East Germany uses a technique to develop the team cohesion by removing some barriers that exist among the humans. The entire team + team coaches + team manager sleep together butt naked under the same roof during their coaching camp for weeks immediately precceding the competetion. Should the USA`s Mosconi cup team do the same thing?:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::cool::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
 
To answer a couple of questions, the Magic Rack was changed because for some reason it wasn't working. They may have had slightly defective racks. As far as the pockets are concerned, Sunnyone is correct. The SkySports crew felt that the ball returns were far too noisy with the "mikes" under the table. Thus, drop pockets were installed the next day. Kudos to Gordon Graham, the ace Diamond mechanic who was there every day to make sure the table was right! Of course we don't hear much about the Diamond table because it plays so good. Did you happen to see the cue ball Shane slow rolled all the way down the table? Afterward he said he wouldn't try that shot on any other table. Enough said.

First of all, the best TEAM won! It was not because of the rolls or any other excuse. I thought the Euros were solid from top to bottom. Can't say the same for Team USA. Is it because the Europeans have far more international players (a dozen or more compared to our one - Shane)? That may be part of it, they are more seasoned in international competition and the pressure that goes with it. Was there some dissension on Team USA? Maybe, but not for me to say on here why that was. Ask me in private and I may tell you.

This was a lopsided win for Europe, more so than any other one. Team USA crumbled and fell, with a last gasp by Shane and Johnny when the outcome was assured. I think Team USA needs new blood and more young players. I'd definitely like to see Dennis back in there, what a spark he was the last two years. Maybe also Jesse Engel to join Shane and Dechaine. Throw in Johnny as the playing captain and we may have a chance.

Of course it isn't up to me, I'm just a rail bird like the rest of you. :wink:
 
Last edited:
(i am posting this simultaneously in az and onepocket.org. well, not exactly simultaneously because i can’t quite figure out how to do that. let’s call the process proximus maximus, which is a faux latin term i just made up!)

even though the mosconi cup doesn’t include one-pocket, i just love these international games!

for some reason, i become much more of a ‘nervous nellie’ while watching the partners matches than the singletons. anyone else feel that way?

for me, i think it’s because i hate screwing up my teammate’s turn. let me count the ways i flub the dub: i miss the shot, i leave her hooked, i scratch, etc.

fortunately, the mosconi cup provides me some considerable quantum of solace when i see some of the top players in the world choke. (ego alert ... yep, i’m talking about you, you mosconi guys!)

further, i think that ‘choke’ is an accurate and descriptive word.

the commentators talk about ‘pressure.’

we can all identify with how that specific duress-noun plays out when we watch world champs miss relatively easy shots. and then further observe them as they miss relatively simple position opportunities.

(on the positive side, it’s also so uplifting to see some of the best players in the universe successfully execute ever-more challenging shots in that same pressure cooker environment!)

with the short races to six, anyone can beat anyone ...

this year’s rookies -- dechaine and melling (how i wish the melling parents hadn’t named him ‘chris’ ... the pronunciation so often morphs into ‘smelling!’) -- have each had some terrific moments.

further mosconi musings ...

> there is not very much we need to say about the mosconi attire ... tacky patches are tacky patches. no matter which team, nor which side of the atlantic sports them on their upper torso garments. tawdry breeds ... well, tawdry.

> i had forgotten about that girl ref -- she is marvelous! she can laser out the sternest looks! although i believe she had more order-maintaining duties last year in york hall. are euro-fans more unruly?

> this year ... why did they abandon the magic rack after the first day?

> also ... didn’t that first-day diamond table have a ball-return function? if i’m not mistaken, the pockets now retain the orbs?

> the stream graphics are terrific! i love the dissolve function as each ball is pocketed. i wish we could do that with one-pocket. show, say, the 14-ball slurped into the ether as it is potted.

> plus, the mosconi running game-count and the regular postings of the overall match standings are most helpful. as is the ‘order of play’ for the daily scheduled competitions -- past, present and future, red v. blue. well done!

(by the way, stellar computer graphics aren’t that expensive. a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down the pants!)

> shot clock ... yes! it seems fair, it keeps the action moving along, it occasionally adds to the tension. i don’t know what the one-pocket equivalent might be? (certainly not 30 seconds! but perhaps a game clock, or a match timepiece ... tick, tick, ticking along?)

> i would never name names ... but isn’t that one euro-guy awfully cute! (there are also one or two boyos who might well qualify for the all-ugly team if one were to score the proceedings in such a petty way, which, of course, one would never do.) is there a baldness requirement to qualify for team europe? is so, why?

> last year, for me, there was one pivotal and defining shot. one of our good guys -- in a key game -- snookered himself with, i believe, only two or three object balls left on the field of play.

this year there have been several exciting turning points. but i haven’t seen that singular ‘oh my gawd’ cardiac-paddle moment. perhaps this is because the contest was never that close?

(to have qualified, heart-wise, the match-changing shot must have come late in the contest, must have been physically or psychologically-pivotal and must have involved an heroic shot or a massive blunder. ((see sunny rule 22b, subsection f.)) )

> why aren’t there any girls in the mosconi cup? jasmin, anyone? jeanette? if those two were on the teams, i bet the interest levels, the viewership, the chatter, would all be up!

> has anyone else noticed how the advertising commercials are well spaced and well done? not intrusive, yet quite creative? if watching them is the entry fee to observe international pool at this level ... well i am so in! okay, so the british accent makes them sound smarter.

> the commentary is quite good. some of it might seem to overstate the obvious; but if the mosconi cup attracts new, and relatively unschooled viewers (such as i am!), then explanations, and over-explanations, of the basics, are both understandable and they are appreciated.

in that vein ... i am so enjoying the wink-and-nudge references. such as when a shot rattles its way in: ‘it wiped its feet at the doorstep.’ ‘it went in the tradesman’s entrance.’

wry, with a european nod.

> there are a couple of stellar futurists in az who go to considerable lengths to allow us peons to access some of the most desirable billiard streams in the universe.

i won’t name ‘cmb’ and ‘up’ by name because they are modest chaps.

(nota bene, boys: your -- cmb’s and up’s -- appearances in onepocket.org are now expected. be there or be square! two splendid venues -- az and one-pocket -- continue to welcome you.)

all of the above musings, random and pointless as they are, are of course, minor notions.

the major concern is, as all of the pool world appreciates, the chat function.

i wasn’t able to find a stream that allowed me to share my real-time wisdom with the real-time world of mosconi cup viewers.

it seemed almost unnatural, if not illegal, for me not to be able to comment as the matches progressed.

first amendment principles may well come into play.

any constitutional attorneys in here?

observing the letter of the law is my life,

sunny

p. s. in a fascinating sidebar discussion, one of the moderators was asked: ‘would team usa have been better off with earl strickland on the squad?’ his shorthand answer was ... ‘no, the future of american pool is with svb and mike d.’

hmm, the future is the future.

but ... it’s interesting to think about the pearl’s passion, his disruption capabilities and the overall influence he would have exerted upon this year’s teams. as well as his skill in clutch situations.

yes?

no?

maybe so?

The future of everything is in the hands of the younger generation, however they will have to "earn" that right, just as the young lions do in their own environment. Some are doing so now and others will step up to test themselves.

I, like others, see a different environment shaping up in the pool world.

Perhaps the Europeans by example will lead America to even greater heights for all of us.

If "supporters" of professional pool continue to believe that the American Mosconi Cup team top players won't follow leadership, who hasn't won titles we will continue to be mired in the old way of thinking about team competition. The same thing applies to the individual players themselves, maybe even more so because they are the ones who ultimately have to get the job done. American pocket billiards has long been known as a lone wolf sport, or a solitary gunslinger mentality. Those days, at least as far as the Mosconi Cup is concerned, are long gone. A new way of thinking must be found for the Americans to succeed and it will not come from within the select group of highly talented players. That type of leadership isn't currently found in that talent pool and we must look elsewhere for leadership.

The U.S. Mosconi Cup Team has been fractured long before the current captain came on the scene, however we were able to win because of our experience in nine ball. The Europeans have closed the gap in experience and talent but they possess even greater assets of comraderie and leadership. Until the American team loses the solitary, lone wolf mentality, and until they change their way of thinking about leadership, they will be woefully under-powered against the European team. At least that's my opinion.

If any of you doubt what I have said, you only have to look toward Facebook and the Europeans to read between the lines. It's all there in black and white, albeit, a hard pill to swallow.

All is not lost and I believe that our American players will modify their thinking and adjust their game plan in years to come. It won't be easy to turn things around and it won't happen overnight but America has always been known for innovation and adaptation and contrary to some opinions, we can learn from others.

Now go out and vote for Ron Paul. :wink:
 
a team against two good players

Just thinking about the team deal against a group of good players that aren't a unit I remembered one of the made for TV sillinesses from a few years back. Mixed scotch doubles matches, I think three different pool games. One team was Jeanette Lee and George Breedlove. I sorta remember the other pairing but out of mercy for one of them they can remain nameless.

George and Jeanette are a long term married couple who practice together and definitely seem to be a team in all things large and small. The other "team" was a pairing of two people without chemistry or much ability to work together. The scoring was so lopsided for the Breedloves that I am surprised the event ever aired!

Some of the US players worked well together in the past in the Mosconi Cup but for the most part the US players as individuals simply had enough greater firepower to overwhelm any European Team. Obviously that isn't true now.

Hu
 
you used to have to go the usa for the best pool...now you have to cross the ocean to get to the best pool...I dont see a lot of young americans willing to go out on road trips across the ocean...pretty easy to figure out there will be a total domination from europe and asia very soon in the pool world...my opinion
 
To answer a couple of questions, the Magic Rack was changed because for some reason it wasn't working. They may have had slightly defective racks. As far as the pockets are concerned, Sunnyone is correct. The SkySports crew felt that the ball returns were far too noisy with the "mikes" under the table. Thus, drop pockets were installed the next day. Kudos to Gordon Graham, the ace Diamond mechanic who was there every day to make sure the table was right! Of course we don't hear much about the Diamond table because it plays so good. Did you happen to see the cue ball Shane slow rolled all the way down the table? Afterward he said he wouldn't try that shot on any other table. Enough said.

First of all, the best TEAM won! It was not because of the rolls or any other excuse. I thought the Euros were solid from top to bottom. Can't say the same for Team USA. Is it because the Europeans have far more international players (a dozen or more compared to our one - Shane)? That may be part of it, they are more seasoned in international competition and the pressure that goes with it. Was there some dissension on Team USA? Maybe, but not for me to say on here why that was. Ask me in private and I may tell you.

This was a lopsided win for Europe, more so than any other one. Team USA crumbled and fell, with a last gasp by Shane and Johnny when the outcome was assured. I think Team USA needs new blood and more young players. I'd definitely like to see Dennis back in there, what a spark he was the last two years. Maybe also Jesse Engel to join Shane and Dechaine. Throw in Johnny as the playing captain and we may have a chance.

Of course it isn't up to me, I'm just a rail bird like the rest of you. :wink:

Nice post Jay. Some rail birds have more feathers and broader wing spans enabling them to climb higher then others and thereby make better observances -- hover on Jay! :thumbup:
 
The future of everything is in the hands of the younger generation, however they will have to "earn" that right, just as the young lions do in their own environment. Some are doing so now and others will step up to test themselves.

I, like others, see a different environment shaping up in the pool world.

Perhaps the Europeans by example will lead America to even greater heights for all of us.

If "supporters" of professional pool continue to believe that the American Mosconi Cup team top players won't follow leadership, who hasn't won titles we will continue to be mired in the old way of thinking about team competition. The same thing applies to the individual players themselves, maybe even more so because they are the ones who ultimately have to get the job done. American pocket billiards has long been known as a lone wolf sport, or a solitary gunslinger mentality. Those days, at least as far as the Mosconi Cup is concerned, are long gone. A new way of thinking must be found for the Americans to succeed and it will not come from within the select group of highly talented players. That type of leadership isn't currently found in that talent pool and we must look elsewhere for leadership.

The U.S. Mosconi Cup Team has been fractured long before the current captain came on the scene, however we were able to win because of our experience in nine ball. The Europeans have closed the gap in experience and talent but they possess even greater assets of comraderie and leadership. Until the American team loses the solitary, lone wolf mentality, and until they change their way of thinking about leadership, they will be woefully under-powered against the European team. At least that's my opinion.

If any of you doubt what I have said, you only have to look toward Facebook and the Europeans to read between the lines. It's all there in black and white, albeit, a hard pill to swallow.

All is not lost and I believe that our American players will modify their thinking and adjust their game plan in years to come. It won't be easy to turn things around and it won't happen overnight but America has always been known for innovation and adaptation and contrary to some opinions, we can learn from others.

Now go out and vote for Ron Paul. :wink:

Well said sir! You are right, all is not lost and it will be a "hard rack to run" with the present mindset in the American player. There is a lot to be said for Yankee ingenuity and ability to "improvise" (USMC). Getting singleton self centered egos to work and interact together as a team, IMHO, will be the hardest part of this scenario. The "domino theory" and "rippling effects" come to mind here.

As for your Ron Paul reference in conjunction with the aforementioned team interaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=FYxPkKGeVKI
 
you used to have to go the usa for the best pool...now you have to cross the ocean to get to the best pool...I dont see a lot of young americans willing to go out on road trips across the ocean...pretty easy to figure out there will be a total domination from europe and asia very soon in the pool world...my opinion

It's not a matter of being "willing" but rather a lack of sponsorship/financial support and that four letter word we all dread ~~ "work"...my opinion.
 
Back
Top