Mosconi, Sigel, Lassiter etc..
- Thread starter Mr441
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All sports are subject to this debate.
Pool is unique where you had this world of "hustlers" vs the world of the pros, both sides claiming greatness yet often avoiding each other. Add to that a gross lack of records and a game that has historically involved the telling of tall tales and it makes comparisons next to impossible
Today you have a field of top pros with little to truly compare them to so who the hell knows???
We don't even know how deep the talent pool has been in any given time including now, it's all estimates.
Pool is unique where you had this world of "hustlers" vs the world of the pros, both sides claiming greatness yet often avoiding each other. Add to that a gross lack of records and a game that has historically involved the telling of tall tales and it makes comparisons next to impossible
Today you have a field of top pros with little to truly compare them to so who the hell knows???
We don't even know how deep the talent pool has been in any given time including now, it's all estimates.
its all about the test of time. those guys from the past maintained their superiority over decades of playing. so the new players have to go a long way to prove their worth in comparison.
todays players are just as good, they just havent lasted the distance.
but no one in the present that has seen the old time greats say that they werent as good as claimed. because they were.
todays players are just as good, they just havent lasted the distance.
but no one in the present that has seen the old time greats say that they werent as good as claimed. because they were.
I think that everybody just has to take ALL of these comments with a grain of salt. Everybody has heard stories, and they typically get inflated. Just the way it is. And I find it can be especially true with the poster's heroes, whomever they may be. The truth almost always lies somewhere in the middle, or grey area if you will. The fact is, Mosconi did make mistakes once in a while. No one has probably ever run 30 playing nine ball, though you hear stories about some random champion from a guys hometown who did it. Instead of all the comparison threads that have been around lately(and all of the arguments that inevitably come with them), maybe we should simply revel in whatever our favorite moments are, without claiming that certain players or achievements outshine another. Lets leave it up to the older generation of pros to say that they are better than the newer guys, and leave the newer guys to dispute it, lol. The fact is, none of us are right, none of us are wrong. All great players have an ego of some sort, because in order to be a world class player, you have to have one. All we are going to end up doing is alienating each other, and in the end, probably a lot of other players. A pro from 70 years ago worked their tail off, much like most pros today. I think it is somewhat demeaning, and maybe insulting to compare. I think most of us have some sort of bias, whether it may be from an age demographic, or even geographic ties(I, for one have JA and Stevie Moore as my favorite Americans, and I won't dispute that the fact that I am from the South might have something to do with it:wink: ). I just hate to see eo many of us go overboard with the comparisons. The truth is, I don't really care. They are all great players, and great accomplishments. Just my opinion, though 
muttley76 said:I think that everybody just has to take ALL of these comments with a grain of salt. Everybody has heard stories, and they typically get inflated. Just the way it is. And I find it can be especially true with the poster's heroes, whomever they may be. The truth almost always lies somewhere in the middle, or grey area if you will. The fact is, Mosconi did make mistakes once in a while. No one has probably ever run 30 playing nine ball, though you hear stories about some random champion from a guys hometown who did it. Instead of all the comparison threads that have been around lately(and all of the arguments that inevitably come with them), maybe we should simply revel in whatever our favorite moments are, without claiming that certain players or achievements outshine another. Lets leave it up to the older generation of pros to say that they are better than the newer guys, and leave the newer guys to dispute it, lol. The fact is, none of us are right, none of us are wrong. All great players have an ego of some sort, because in order to be a world class player, you have to have one. All we are going to end up doing is alienating each other, and in the end, probably a lot of other players. A pro from 70 years ago worked their tail off, much like most pros today. I think it is somewhat demeaning, and maybe insulting to compare. I think most of us have some sort of bias, whether it may be from an age demographic, or even geographic ties(I, for one have JA and Stevie Moore as my favorite Americans, and I won't dispute that the fact that I am from the South might have something to do with it:wink: ). I just hate to see eo many of us go overboard with the comparisons. The truth is, I don't really care. They are all great players, and great accomplishments. Just my opinion, though
Tap Tap Tap
I agree with you wholeheartedly
The sheer number of tours and events around the world is pheonominal, compared to what it used to be
Eastern Asian countries like, The Phillies (Phillippines), Taipei, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, or UK and Euro Tour, and not to mention the various Pro and Ameteur tours/events that are held in the US and Canada each year, especially events like the US Open, DCC, which are probably amoungst the biggest tournaments in the world, and that's not to mentiong the BCA Nationals in Vegas each year also, and I imagine that there are quite a few handy pool players from the middle east and from Central and South American countries also
Pool has grown so much over the years since the days of Mosconi, Lassiter, Greenleaf, etc, and as far as I can tell, pool's real "Golden Era" is here right now and has been for the past 20 or so years, and long may it continue to get better for us all
Willie
TheWizard said:Tap Tap Tap
I agree with you wholeheartedly
The sheer number of tours and events around the world is pheonominal, compared to what it used to be
Eastern Asian countries like, The Phillies (Phillippines), Taipei, Japan, Taiwan, Korea, or UK and Euro Tour, and not to mention the various Pro and Ameteur tours/events that are held in the US and Canada each year, especially events like the US Open, DCC, which are probably amoungst the biggest tournaments in the world, and that's not to mentiong the BCA Nationals in Vegas each year also, and I imagine that there are quite a few handy pool players from the middle east and from Central and South American countries also
Pool has grown so much over the years since the days of Mosconi, Lassiter, Greenleaf, etc, and as far as I can tell, pool's real "Golden Era" is here right now and has been for the past 20 or so years, and long may it continue to get better for us all
Willie
I agree with some of what you said, but saturation doesn't equal greatness. There used to be tables in backwater towns all over the country, big pool halls were easy to find. Pool matches were on the FRONT page of the newspaper, name the last time you saw match results IN a newspaper. Pool's Golden Era this is not. Pool was bigger than baseball for christs sake!
There are a lot of good, even great players out there. But the numbers don't lie, and when someone beats willie's records, i will bow down to that player as well.
Look, i'm not old enough to have been blessed to have seen the best of the best. God knows i've often thought i was born at least 50 years too late
. But the best is the best, and willie,luther,jimmy c.,wimpy, jersey, etc,etc,etc, will always be considered the cream of the crop--so long as we remember them.
I still have a hard time believing all the Mosconi nine ball stories. Seems like he played the game three times, always after being goaded, and seems to have reportedly run a 9, 11, or even 13 pack each time.
He was God at 14.1 but I doubt his nine ball game was THAT strong.
I believe he told Sigel that his 150 and out against Zuglan was one of the best he'd ever seen. Nice compliment. I'm sure he appreciated Zuglan firing a 148 in the same tourney too.
He was God at 14.1 but I doubt his nine ball game was THAT strong.
I believe he told Sigel that his 150 and out against Zuglan was one of the best he'd ever seen. Nice compliment. I'm sure he appreciated Zuglan firing a 148 in the same tourney too.
I really don't understand why the name association seems to be the be-all end-all here. What is with the quotes like
"Ever see a guy who is a STRONG 14.1 player (has run 100), or only plays 14.1, play 9-ball, let alone Mosconi?"
Actually, I have seen quite a few good straight pool players that I think I would rob at 9 ball, and I am a shortstop at absolute best, at any game. Plus, this fascination with players of the olden days is getting kind of out there. The simple fact is that probably 90% of the people saying the old timers were the best probably never even saw them play in person, and quick newsflash, the tapes you have seen were rarely their average game, much less their bad days. More realistically, the players in any sport tend to progress through time, rather than regress. Just because someone has a famous name doesn't mean they are better than others. Ask Fats, lol. Or, if you really want, ask some of the old timers about Harold Worst. The majority of guys from the old guard would probably pick him over the vast majority of guys mentioned in this thread. We should revere the players of yesteryear, but not at the expense of the players today.
"Ever see a guy who is a STRONG 14.1 player (has run 100), or only plays 14.1, play 9-ball, let alone Mosconi?"
Actually, I have seen quite a few good straight pool players that I think I would rob at 9 ball, and I am a shortstop at absolute best, at any game. Plus, this fascination with players of the olden days is getting kind of out there. The simple fact is that probably 90% of the people saying the old timers were the best probably never even saw them play in person, and quick newsflash, the tapes you have seen were rarely their average game, much less their bad days. More realistically, the players in any sport tend to progress through time, rather than regress. Just because someone has a famous name doesn't mean they are better than others. Ask Fats, lol. Or, if you really want, ask some of the old timers about Harold Worst. The majority of guys from the old guard would probably pick him over the vast majority of guys mentioned in this thread. We should revere the players of yesteryear, but not at the expense of the players today.
Straight pool requires a broader skill set than nine ball. This isn't glorifying the old players, its glorifying straight pool players. But if you can rob em, i guess you can rob them then. Some guy brought up Willies nine ball game, I alluded to the fact that he could probably string a few 9 ball racks together regardless of the opponent.
justin.
justin.
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JusticeNJ said:
While I agree with your statement, a good nineball player will beat a good 14.1 player at nineball. It is like in combat sports. A good big guy will beat a good little guy. I would go so far as to say that the 9 ball would be much closer than if the same two played 14.1, just saying that playing great 14.1 doesn't necessarily translate.
muttley76 said:
Hard to argue against that. They are two totally different games, I just think a straight pool player will come to the table more equipped to play 9ball than the other way around.
I'm actually of the opinion that todays guys can hang with the old guys. Really, its not like the old guys NEVER missed, and the guys of today are quite capable of doling out the punishment too. You don't get any more chances against today pros than you did 40 years ago.
Justin.
bud green said:
Point well taken, Bud. Though I must count myself among the many on this forum who only saw Mosconi after he had his stroke, I've heard little of his nineball prowess.
Then again, some of those who saw Willie play before he had his stroke say he was the best position player they have ever seen. Does that mean he'd have played better nine ball position than Buddy Hall or Ralf Souquet? It seems unlikely, at least not without a whole lot of practice.
Still, Mosconi's incredible position play skills would have likely translated well to nine ball and it's easy for me to imagine him stringing racks together.
