Mosconin stance

[sfleinen]

Sean, if Mosconi used a slip stroke "often," say what 30%, 20% of the time, where is the video of him using it? There's at least several hours of Mosconi on tape -- should be plenty, no?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, when one looks at the video footage available (sadly there isn't enough of Mosconi, I could watch him all day), the problem is that the camera centers the table in the view -- as most pool footage does -- and the player's body is clipped from the view. Especially that grip hand. And, if you're looking for something "subtle" like a grip hand readjustment -- combined with the rare occurrence when that grip hand is in view -- it makes it even harder.

Having said all that, though, I maintain that I see Willie use a small slip stroke on some of the shots (the ones that Danny / Sloppy Pockets mentions).

The key here, is that Willie didn't use it on every shot. The fact that he uses a pinned grip hand much of the time on those short punchy shots, and sprinkles in a slip stroke "here and there," doesn't make it easy to convince folks like you and Dale, who, respectfully, I think are missing the importance of *when* Willie is doing that slight readjustment. The cue is already traveling backwards when that readjustment is made, and that's slip stroke territory.

It's not a terrible thing that Willie had this terrific technique in his toolbox. In fact, it's glorious.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

If you look at almost any video of Mosconi shooting you will se many, many instances where you can clearly see that his grip hand moves not at all from a very short, forward position. Over and over, his grip hand finishes the shot *way* forward. There is no slip stroke.

Where is video to the contrary?

Lou Figueroa

Definitely true -- no argument there that Willie kept his hand pinned much of the time during those short punchy shots. But what's being argued here is whether Mosconi: 1.) had the slip stroke in his toolbox; 2.) used it (even on occasion); and 3.) whether that "UFO" he pulled out was a slip stroke or "slight readjustment" of the grip hand.

That third one is key, for I think it's where -- again, respectfully -- you and Dale may be overlooking when the readjustment takes place. If you're just bouncing the cue in your hand and readjusting it to get ready for the delivery stroke (as you do, in your 112-ball run video), but then you deliver the cue with a pinned hand (pull-back and all), that is not a slip stroke. But, if on the pull-back for the delivery stroke you combine a grip hand readjustment, that is slip stroke territory. That's the very definition of slip stroke -- you're slipping the grip hand backwards during the stroke, "slip" then "stroke."

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, when one looks at the video footage available (sadly there isn't enough of Mosconi, I could watch him all day), the problem is that the camera centers the table in the view -- as most pool footage does -- and the player's body is clipped from the view. Especially that grip hand. And, if you're looking for something "subtle" like a grip hand readjustment, it makes it even harder.

Having said all that, though, I maintain that I see Willie use a small slip stroke on some of the shots (the ones that Danny / Sloppy Pockets mentions).

The key here, is that Willie didn't use it on every shot. The fact that he uses a pinned grip hand much of the time on those short punchy shots, and sprinkles in a slip stroke "here and there," doesn't make it easy to convince folks like you and Dale, who, respectfully, I think are missing the importance of *when* Willie is doing that slight readjustment. The cue is already traveling backwards when that readjustment is made, and that's slip stroke territory.

It's not a terrible thing that Willie had this terrific technique in his toolbox. In fact, it's glorious.

-Sean

Sean, I understand about the camera angles however there are plenty of shots on all that video where you can clearly see, either his entire stroke, or see where his grip hand is on the cue as he finishes the shot. And there is no evidence of a slip stroke.

The problem as I see it is that too many people are saying "Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke" when this clearly is not the case. For someone to say the same of Cowboy Jimmy Moore is accurate but to use the same descriptor for Mosconi is not.

Maybe, on rare occasion, Mosconi used a small slip stroke. So what? That might have been true for many players of his era when the slip stroke was far more common than it is today. It's like, I often shoot shots I can't reach, left-handed. That does not make me a southpaw, ambidextrous (or amphibious if you're DD fan), or a left-handed player. It just means I can shoot some shots left-handed. No one should be saying "Lou is a lefty."

Mosconi *might* have slip stroked a rare shot. That's a far cry from claiming it was his general style of play.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Definitely true -- no argument there that Willie kept his hand pinned much of the time during those short punchy shots. But what's being argued here is whether Mosconi: 1.) had the slip stroke in his toolbox; 2.) used it (even on occasion); and 3.) whether that "UFO" he pulled out was a slip stroke or "slight readjustment" of the grip hand.

That third one is key, for I think it's where -- again, respectfully -- you and Dale may be overlooking when the readjustment takes place. If you're just bouncing the cue in your hand and readjusting it to get ready for the delivery stroke (as you do, in your 112-ball run video), but then you deliver the cue with a pinned hand (pull-back and all), that is not a slip stroke. But, if on the pull-back for the delivery stroke you combine a grip hand readjustment, that is slip stroke territory. That's the very definition of slip stroke -- you're slipping the grip hand backwards during the stroke, "slip" then "stroke."

-Sean

And my point was that some are mistaking the same thing I do, because of the short starting point for my grip, for a slip stroke. You and I know it's not a slip stroke but others do not and it's the same adjustment Mosconi sometimes makes that some are mistaking for a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BeiberLvr]

It's called a grip adjustment.

How do I know? Because I do something similar. Back when I started playing pool in the 60's about the only instructional books out there were Mosconi's and a couple of others. So just like in his books, I adopted the short starting grip and to this day start out with my grip hand near the top of the wrap and my grip hand forward of perpendicular. Then, once I'm in shooting position, on every shot, I adjust my grip back. It's unusual style, but after 50 years I'm not about to change.

Adjusting a short starting grip backwards is most definitely not a slip stroke (though I can understand, if you're not familiar with the short grip, how it might be mistaken for one). You can see it clearly at 2:30 and 3:40 and at many other points throughout the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRNPz_CEszE

Lou Figueroa

Getting a bit delusional in your old age, Lou :grin-square:

1. Your hand slips back as you're settling into your stance. Yeah, that's a grip adjustment for sure. No argument there.

2. Mosconi's hand slips back during his backswing. That's a slip stroke. Not a grip adjustment.

Watch both videos again closely, and it's clear as day that you aren't even remotely doing the same thing as Mosconi.

Any other uneducated fools that wish to argue, be my guest.

 

[lfigueroa]

Getting a bit delusional in your old age, Lou :grin-square:

1. Your hand slips back as you're settling into your stance. Yeah, that's a grip adjustment for sure. No argument there.

2. Mosconi's hand slips back during his backswing. That's a slip stroke. Not a grip adjustment.

Watch both videos again closely, and it's clear as day that you aren't even remotely doing the same thing as Mosconi.

Any other uneducated fools that wish to argue, be my guest.

I have zero interest in debating with anyone telling me I am delusional in my old age and using the words "uneducated fools."

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

And my point was that some are mistaking the same thing I do, because of the short starting point for my grip, for a slip stroke. You and I know it's not a slip stroke but others do not and it's the same adjustment Mosconi sometimes makes that some are mistaking for a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa

You have a great point there, and I see that too -- folks that see any readjustment of the grip hand collectively throw their hands up in the air and go "Aha -- slip stroke!!"

Man, it's just a small difference, but huge in the definition of the term "slip stroke" -- of precisely when that readjustment takes place. Put that readjustment anywhere but in the pull-back for the delivery stroke, and the label "slip stroke" goes out the window.

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, I understand about the camera angles however there are plenty of shots on all that video where you can clearly see, either his entire stroke, or see where his grip hand is on the cue as he finishes the shot. And there is no evidence of a slip stroke.

The problem as I see it is that too many people are saying "Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke" when this clearly is not the case. For someone to say the same of Cowboy Jimmy Moore is accurate but to use the same descriptor for Mosconi is not.

Maybe, on rare occasion, Mosconi used a small slip stroke. So what? That might have been true for many players of his era when the slip stroke was far more common than it is today. It's like, I often shoot shots I can't reach, left-handed. That does not make me a southpaw, ambidextrous (or amphibious if you're DD fan), or a left-handed player. It just means I can shoot some shots left-handed. No one should be saying "Lou is a lefty."

Mosconi *might* have slip stroked a rare shot. That's a far cry from claiming it was his general style of play.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, concerning that bolded last sentence, that's very fair. I maintain that Mosconi had the slip stroke tool in his toolbox, and occasionally pulled it out (although you and I differ on how often). That he used the tool occasionally doesn't mean he was a "full-time slip stroker" like Cowboy Jimmy Moore. But did he have that tool in his toolbox? And did he use it -- far from did he learn the skill in the spirit of being exposed to and learning everything he can -- did he *USE* it? You bet your ass he did.

And it's evident in the video on display in this thread. To those of us that see that in the rare time when his grip hand was in view coinciding with the occasional gumption for Willie to use it, we see that the slip takes place during the pull-back for the delivery stroke, and that counts as a classic slip stroke.

But make no mistake -- much of the shots where his grip hand is visible, you see Willie doing the short punchy shots where his grip hand is pinned throughout the delivery stroke.

I'll be one of the first to defend you in saying the slip stroke was not Willie's "general style of play" [as compared to Cowboy Jimmy Moore]. But he definitely used it often enough to displace him from the category of "rare / blue moon occasion."

-Sean

 

[GoldenFlash]

The whole situation sounds odd. Lots of people here have seen him play many times and nobody (that I can recall) has mentioned that he ever played 50 points for a coke, and on top of that sharked some local guy for no apparent reason. I'm not exactly saying you are having a Brian Williams moment, but it was like 50 years ago. Any young guy (at the time) who has the presence of mind to mouth off to a legend and think about beating him up sounds like an aggressive personality. You sure there isn't more to the story?
Again, this may be the only time Mosconi has ever been a jerk to anybody in an exhibition situation. Maybe he was having a bad day.

YOU NEED A PSYCHIATRIST.
If a legend mouths off...the legend gets it back. Legend needs to learn to take it after first dishing it.
He should've just acted like the legend he was and let it go at that. He was on company business. It was supposed to be just a fun type exhibition. When he started running his boastful mouth in a smart aleck way, he lost the crowd.
He was an ass and the onlookers booed him. One big drunk wanted to just slap his face off and get it over with.
I don't care how many people on here played him a zillion times!
I played him at the opening of the pool room section of Stewart Brunswick Lanes on Stewart Avenue in Atlanta at one of his shows just like I said.
By the way, a big league showman doesn't have "bad days". If he does, he's so good at his craft and in disguising stuff, that you, as an amateur, will never know it.
Get a life, mister, and think whatever you want to think...I'm not selling anything on here. Leave me alone.

 

[Dan White]

That does not make me a southpaw, ambidextrous (or amphibious if you're DD fan), or a left-handed player.

This guy's a real southpaw. Word has it he's got a mean slip stroke, even with suction cups for fingers...

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I have zero interest in debating with anyone telling me I am delusional in my old age and using the words "uneducated fools."

Lou Figueroa

Can't blame you there, Lou. Leave it to Beiber to come out with a shitty, disrespectful comment like that, and from a C player to a very strong B+ player nonetheless.

I hope you don't think I'm being disrespectful, I just see it very differently than you do. I'm coming to realize it's a matter of semantics, and not that you are an old, delusional, and uneducated fool. I have great respect for your game, and thanks for linking to that clip again (yes, I've seen it before). You have great fundamentals and a real sweet stroke, way better than Willie showed in that video. You have to wonder why he was so great, but he did it better than anybody at the time, so his odd technique worked perfectly for him.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, concerning that bolded last sentence, that's very fair. I maintain that Mosconi had the slip stroke tool in his toolbox, and occasionally pulled it out (although you and I differ on how often). That he used the tool occasionally doesn't mean he was a "full-time slip stroker" like Cowboy Jimmy Moore. But did he have that tool in his toolbox? And did he use it -- far from did he learn the skill in the spirit of being exposed to and learning everything he can -- did he *USE* it? You bet your ass he did.

And it's evident in the video on display in this thread. To those of us that see that in the rare time when his grip hand was in view coinciding with the occasional gumption for Willie to use it, we see that the slip takes place during the pull-back for the delivery stroke, and that counts as a classic slip stroke.

But make no mistake -- much of the shots where his grip hand is visible, you see Willie doing the short punchy shots where his grip hand is pinned throughout the delivery stroke.

I'll be one of the first to defend you in saying the slip stroke was not Willie's "general style of play" [as compared to Cowboy Jimmy Moore]. But he definitely used it often enough to displace him from the category of "rare / blue moon occasion."

-Sean

Sean, thank you for that gracious acknowledgement of the point.

Having seen Mosconi in person for around 600 points of 14.1 and having watched most of the available video of him, at one time or another, I'm willing to concede Mosconi might have used a slip stroke on rare occasion -- basically I'm leaning more towards the Blue Moon occasion than you are. Maybe we can meet in the middle, somewhere between often and rare

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

This guy's a real southpaw. Word has it he's got a mean slip stroke, even with suction cups for fingers...

lol. He's amphibious!

Lou Figueroa

 

[GoldenFlash]

I have zero interest in debating with anyone telling me I am delusional in my old age and using the words "uneducated fools."
Lou Figueroa

I just watched your video running all those balls in straights.
Don't care what type of "grip" you use...the balls went into the pockets rack after rack and that's all that matters.
Looked impressive to me.

 

[lfigueroa]

Can't blame you there, Lou. Leave it to Beiber to come out with a shitty, disrespectful comment like that, and from a C player to a very strong B+ player nonetheless.

I hope you don't think I'm being disrespectful, I just see it very differently than you do. I'm coming to realize it's a matter of semantics, and not that you are an old, delusional, and uneducated fool. I have great respect for your game, and thanks for linking to that clip again (yes, I've seen it before). You have great fundamentals and a real sweet stroke, way better than Willie showed in that video. You have to wonder why he was so great, but he did it better than anybody at the time, so his odd technique worked perfectly for him.

oh no, not at all, SP. I believe different opinions make the world go round and all that. And I do agreed with you that, if nothing else, this discussion has led to some interesting insights on the semantics of what constitutes a slip stroke and who should be said to have been a slip stroke player. It's all good, with rare exception

Looking at some of the real old videos, the fundamentals of some of the old-timers is shocking. If you've ever watched footage of Ralph Greenleaf, one of the greatest 14.1 players ever, you'll see he had a huge swap in his stroke. Same for Ronnie Allen, one of the all time great 1pocket players. His stroke looked like he was trying to paint the CB with a brush.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I just watched your video running all those balls in straights.
Don't care what type of "grip" you use...the balls went into the pockets rack after rack and that's all that matters.
Looked impressive to me.

Thank you, GF.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

Sean, thank you for that gracious acknowledgement of the point.

Having seen Mosconi in person for around 600 points of 14.1 and having watched most of the available video of him, at one time or another, I'm willing to concede Mosconi might have used a slip stroke on rare occasion -- basically I'm leaning more towards the Blue Moon occasion than you are. Maybe we can meet in the middle, somewhere between often and rare

Lou Figueroa

How about "occasional"?

Funnin' aside, Phil Capelle posted a nice short compendium of shots he found in this thread's discussed video, that are slip strokes (and I agree with his selections, btw). Additionally, he classified how easy it is to see / how "classic" of a slip stroke it is, using A/B/C-style classification. Bravo Zulu to Phil for doing this.

BTW: I slightly disagree with the quoted definition he found, because it's a bit ambiguous as to when that grip readjustment takes place. That's why, btw, I think many folks misidentify a slip stroke (as you noted).

-Sean

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

BTW: I slightly disagree with the quoted definition he found, because it's a bit ambiguous as to when that grip readjustment takes place. That's why, btw, I think many folks misidentify a slip stroke (as you noted).

-Sean

I just went down and played a bit using a slip stroke. Man am I rusty at it! However you define it, one thing I can say about the difference between a slip and a re-adjustment. A re-adjustment is real easy to do and a slip stroke, well, that's need constant practice.

Maybe that's a big reason why it fell out of favor. Maybe the reason why the greats used it was because you had to be somewhat great in the first place to use it consistently. Only real reason I see to use it with today's equipment is so it doesn't die. And it's just fun as hell!

I take the first word in the phrase "play pool" quite literally.

 

[BeiberLvr]

I have zero interest in debating with anyone telling me I am delusional in my old age and using the words "uneducated fools."

Lou Figueroa

Do you ever admit when you're wrong?

Now I won't argue that Mosconi was an avid user of the slip stroke. However, in the video posted, in which you vehemently argued he was only adjusting his grip. He is obviously using a slip stroke.

I apologize for the delusional remark. I'll admit that I was wrong, and a little quick at the keyboard in my last post.

There, see how easy that was.

 

[lfigueroa]

How about "occasional"?

Funnin' aside, Phil Capelle posted a nice short compendium of shots he found in this thread's discussed video, that are slip strokes (and I agree with his selections, btw). Additionally, he classified how easy it is to see / how "classic" of a slip stroke it is, using A/B/C-style classification. Bravo Zulu to Phil for doing this.

BTW: I slightly disagree with the quoted definition he found, because it's a bit ambiguous as to when that grip readjustment takes place. That's why, btw, I think many folks misidentify a slip stroke (as you noted).

-Sean

So I just watched it and I think Phil is not seeing clearly on several of those shot: I don't see a slip stroke (and have no idea how he could see one), at 1:30, 3:24, or 3:40. I think that perhaps there might be a very small slip stroke at 5:20 and 6:15, but the video is so grainy it's hard to tell. At 7:10 I would say that there is a very small slip stroke. So by my count that's like one for sure out of 28.

Closer to rare than occasional, particularly when viewed in the context of all available video.

Just as a side note, I'm somewhat surprised Phil would use Wiki as a source/reference.

Lou Figueroa