Mosconin stance

[sfleinen]

I just went down and played a bit using a slip stroke. Man am I rusty at it! However you define it, one thing I can say about the difference between a slip and a re-adjustment. A re-adjustment is real easy to do and a slip stroke, well, that's need constant practice.

Maybe that's a big reason why it fell out of favor. Maybe the reason why the greats used it was because you had to be somewhat great in the first place to use it consistently. Only real reason I see to use it with today's equipment is so it doesn't die. And it's just fun as hell!

I take the first word in the phrase "play pool" quite literally.

Danny, I trust that you know a slip stroke when you see one, because it appears you identified the same shots that Phil Capelle did. I know that on the 14.1 forum, Lou, Dale, and I disagreed on the topic of Mosconi and the slip stroke, far away from the general populace of the Main forum. I do agree with their notion that many folks misidentify a slip stroke, and misidentify Mosconi as a "full-time slip stroker."

Having previously used it (as did you), I know -- and can hear -- a slip stroke when it takes place, because the knowledge is quite intimate. That tutorial I wrote on the slip stroke several years ago should show that I know the intricate details of it. Especially that sound -- even though Willie's grip hand is not visible a lot of the time in that video, those that've used a slip stroke before *know* that sound -- something analogous to a fat chick wearing pantyhouse when she takes a step, but in a higher register (i.e. a "squeak" instead of a "zip"). This sound certainly can't be confused with the sound that Irish linen makes against one suit jacket, which is a lower-pitched zip. A better analogy is the sound a guitar player's fretting hand makes when repositioning his/her hand during a chord change -- that "squeak" the flesh makes against round-wound strings.

Even though I'd for the most part discarded my pool fundamentals in favor of snooker fundamentals (with the pull-through technique of always maintaining control of the cue with a pinned grip hand), once in a blue moon that slip stroke will come out -- especially if I need to really whack the cue ball with a lot of spin. (Good example -- if I need tons of top spin to really and repetitively plow through a rack during a 14.1 break shot.)

But if I were to try using the slip stroke on all but the occasional shot, I immediately see the reason why I switched away from it -- that very small period of time where my hand slides backward during the pull-back, introduces a bit of yaw in the cue delivery, enough that I would NEVER use it on long distance shots where precision is at a premium.

You definitely have to be so well oiled in your stroke, to the point where you're playing every day, to keep the slip stroke at optimum performance.

-Sean

 

[Dan White]

Get a life, mister, and think whatever you want to think...I'm not selling anything on here. Leave me alone.

Geez...take it easy. I think it is fair to question somebody who throws out an odd sounding story from 50 years ago. If you recall that people were actually booing Mosconi, then I have to take your word for it. That makes the whole event even more strange, don't you think? His vast body of work regarding exhibitions shows him to be the professional you mention, keeping any negative emotions he may have had in check. Your story is the exception and it makes me wonder what set him off.

 

[PoolBoy1]

One additional thing: I know there's limited video available of Mosconi in his prime. But, there are some vids or him playing Caras on ABC, an appearance on "What's My Line," some other TV appearances, and some instructional and exhibition stuff. When I reviewed much of that video, shot-by-shot, I saw no evidence of a slip stroke and wrote the results up here. In fact, the exact opposite was true -- in shot after shot, where you could clearly see him stroke, he either stayed with an extremely short, forward of perpendicular grip with his grip hand ending up way forward, or he would adjust his grip back when he had to stretch out for the shot.

Certainly, if Mosconi used a slip stroke, 6" or otherwise, there should be plenty of footage of him using a slip stroke that we should all be able to see.

But there isn't.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, what would you call a pool place? Parlor or Room? Mosconi may have used a slip stroke at one point in career and not otherwise. Therefore the variances in videos. He definitely hit the banana peel in the exhibition video.

 

[sfleinen]

So I just watched it and I think Phil is not seeing clearly on several of those shot: I don't see a slip stroke (and have no idea how he could see one), at 1:30, 3:24, or 3:40. I think that perhaps there might be a very small slip stroke at 5:20 and 6:15, but the video is so grainy it's hard to tell. At 7:10 I would say that there is a very small slip stroke. So by my count that's like one for sure out of 28.

Closer to rare than occasional, particularly when viewed in the context of all available video.

Just as a side note, I'm somewhat surprised Phil would use Wiki as a source/reference.

Lou Figueroa

We disagree on those shots, but it's all good, Lou. The slip Willie used on those shots cannot be compared to Cowboy Jimmy Moore, but make no mistake, a slip is a slip. I guess in the grand scheme of slip strokeage, Willie would be considered a part-timer (hobbyist?), and even then, a small slip. What I think is dangerous, is pointing a finger at Cowboy Jimmy Moore, and saying "now *there* is a slip stroke!" (To imply anything less is not a slip stroke at all.)

As for quoting Wiki as an authoritative source, I agree. But in Phil's defense, there's no other source that has a better definition. The definition cited is weak and leaves enough ambiguity for folks to misconstrue what is truly a slip stroke and what is not. A particular mischaracterization that personally sticks in my craw is when people confuse a "slip stroke" with a "stroke slip" -- the former being what we're discussing with repositioning the grip hand during the delivery stroke, and the latter being letting the cue's forward momentum slip or slide through the grip hand after delivery / after cue ball contact.

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

Geez...take it easy. I think it is fair to question somebody who throws out an odd sounding story from 50 years ago. If you recall that people were actually booing Mosconi, then I have to take your word for it. That makes the whole event even more strange, don't you think? His vast body of work regarding exhibitions shows him to be the professional you mention, keeping any negative emotions he may have had in check. Your story is the exception and it makes me wonder what set him off.

I believe that a drunk in the audience being mentioned provides some insight as to what kind of place it was. So you have people drinking and a short-tempered savant trying to demonstrate his craft and...

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, what would you call a pool place? Parlor or Room? Mosconi may have used a slip stroke at one point in career and not otherwise. Therefore the variances in videos. He definitely hit the banana peel in the exhibition video.

Don't believe I have ever used the word parlor. Pool room and pool hall would be about it.

And yes, maybe there were changes in his game over time. But unless there's someone around who saw him when he was in his prime in the 30's and 40's who can say? We would need someone who is still around in their 80's, 90's or older, and still had their wits about them.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mr3cushion]

I saw Mosconi play several times back in the 60's.

His grip was not perpendicular to the floor, but rather a bit forward. Short grip, short bridge. However, in his instruction books he did advocate a perpendicular position for the forearm. Do as I say, not as I do.

As to the slip stroke, I don't recall seeing him use one. I believe many people who say he did forget that because his grip was so short, on some shots when he had to stretch a bit, he had to adjust his grip back and that slight adjustment was mistaken as a slip stroke.

During a prior discussion on this topic I did a quick-pass, shot-by-shot analysis of many of the available videos of Mosconi and to the best of my recollection there was no slip stroke. However that doesn't stop some folks from finding one shot, somewhere on a video, that they claim is a slip stroke.

Lou Figueroa

So you watched Mosconi play LIVE several times in the 60's? I'd like to know where YOU saw him play?

Just curious!

 

[Ak Guy]

His stroke

In that video I noticed his arm whipping to the right when he broke open the rack. Reminds me of Efren using body English on his hots. So much for the perfect stroke. But. it is the perfect stroke for 2 of the best ever.

 

[John Brumback]

Here's my take.I only watched a few min of the vid with Willie and I too saw what I call a "slip stroke" on a few of his shots.

IMO a lot of the players of my generation call that move of sliding your grip hand back on your final stroke... a slip stroke,but hell I guess you can call it what ever you want,it aint science.



I've played and been around quite a few of the players older than I am and have seen it used a bunch. Cornbread Red had one of the longest slip strokes that I have ever seen.I played him for hours and got to watch him up close.

I should ask,that if that is not a slip stroke..then what really is? I maybe missing out on some new trick:grin:

I've never heard it mentioned but SVB does a little funny move on his final stroke. He does what I would call a "re gripping" of the cue on his last stroke. John B.

 

[sfleinen]

Here's my take.I only watched a few min of the vid with Willie and I too saw what I call a "slip stroke" on a few of his shots.

IMO a lot of the players of my generation call that move of sliding your grip hand back on your final stroke... a slip stroke,but hell I guess you can call it what ever you want,it aint science.



I've played and been around quite a few of the players older than I am and have seen it used a bunch. Cornbread Red had one of the longest slip strokes that I have ever seen.I played him for hours and got to watch him up close.

I should ask,that if that is not a slip stroke..then what really is? I maybe missing out on some new trick:grin:

I've never heard it mentioned but SVB does a little funny move on his final stroke. He does what I would call a "re gripping" of the cue on his last stroke. John B.

Concerning the bolded part, SVB certainly does, John. Additionally, I see that funny thing he does with his shoulder, where (from behind him, you can see it) it almost looks like dislocates or repositions his shoulder outwards away from his body. I'll have to find a video that shows what I'm talking about.

-Sean

 

[lfigueroa]

So you watched Mosconi play LIVE several times in the 60's? I'd like to know where YOU saw him play?

Just curious!

Yes, I can remember it as if it were yesterday (insert flashback music).

I think I got interested in pool right around 1968 or '69. A friend and I went to a bowling alley with his dad and mom one weekend and while they bowled, we discovered the pool room that was part of the bowling alley. My family lived in San Francisco, down by the Cow Palace, and bowling alleys with pool rooms in them were a pretty common setup back then, around there. In fact, just a short walk away from our house was Castle Lanes, where, very early on in life, I learned courtesy of a summer bowling league, that I had absolutely no talent for that game.

But occasionally I'd wander into the pool room there. It had perhaps nine or so old Brunswicks and I'd watch all these old guys bat the balls around. They seemed to favor some odd game where it only mattered if you made a ball in one particular pocket, or perhaps the other. I wouldn't decipher what they doing until much later on in life... Not long after my buddy and I became proud owners of our very own personal pool cues, I learned that Willie Mosconi would be making his annual appearance at Castle Lanes. This was huge. I had watched "The Hustler" several times by now and knew the lore.

So the day of the exhibition, I get out of school early and zoom down to Castle Lanes to get a front row seat. They had recovered the front table and all the old guys already had their favored perches secured. Nonetheless, I squeezed in. Then "he" walked into the pool room. Mosconi was always nattily dressed in sports coat and tie. He'd come into the room with a box of balls and a luggage-style cue case. His hair was pure white and he always had this very elegant, tailored look about him. To warm up, he'd rack all fifteen balls, separate the head ball and set up a break shot off to the left of the rack. The break shots he seemed to favor were always a little steeper than I would have thought comfortable, but they certainly didn't slow him up.

He'd run off two racks and then be done, ready to play his opponent, 150 points of 14.1. Depending on whom he was playing, he'd often kick into the back of the stack and play the head ball two rails into the side, just to give his opponent the chance at a running start. He'd always run at least a 100 and I saw him go 150 and out twice. If he had missed somewhere along the way and got out running a 50, or something like that, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And we'd all go, "Well, yes." And he'd keep shooting and always get the 100. Then he'd shoot some trick shots, including some pretty nifty masses, and then hang around and talk and sign autographs. (It's the only autograph I have ever asked for in my life.)

Perhaps the last time I saw him was towards the late 70s, like maybe 1976, at an appearance in downtown San Francisco at a walk-up bowling alley named, appropriately enough, Downtown Bowl. He did the usual exhibition that I had seen several times before and it was still fascinating. Particularly, as I've mentioned before, because of the way his cue ball behaved. It was extraordinary how it would muscle into the balls and keep diving into them again and again until it had plowed through them all and come out the other side of the cluster or stack, totally unscathed.

So after his exhibition he's standing around, leaning against the table and talking to all the old timers and they're asking all the usual, "Did you ever play...?" "What'd you think of so and so's game?" and I'm trying to get closer to listen in on all this and I'm right by the side pocket of the table he's just finished his exhibition on and I look down and there it is.

Right there, at the bottom of the side pocket, is Mosconi's Cue Ball.

The blue circle on it is staring right back up at me and somehow, it was challenging me. Everyone is focused on Mosconi. No one is looking at me. I stare back into the abyss and realize I have but one moment to make a critical, and yes, criminal, decision. I look down into the pocket and I swear, Mosconi's Cue Ball is virtually howling with laughter at me. I quickly seize the little sucker, muffling it as best I can, stuff it into the pocket of my coat, and dash down the stairs of the establishment scared to death that if Mosconi discovers His Cue Ball is missing, they'll lock down the whole bowling alley -- and perhaps even cordon off the entire downtown district -- until they find the missing orb.

Now, some 40 years later, I still feel bad about the larceny I committed in my callow youth. But it's done and I can't undo it and so Mosconi's Cue Ball now sits, somewhat more meekly and quietly, on my bookshelf of pool books. But I think it still knows it's Mosconi's Cue Ball and now, just every once in a while when I'm sitting at the computer writing about the trials and tribulations of my pool game, I occasionally hear a tiny little giggle coming from behind my back, from somewhere on my book case.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Here's my take.I only watched a few min of the vid with Willie and I too saw what I call a "slip stroke" on a few of his shots.

IMO a lot of the players of my generation call that move of sliding your grip hand back on your final stroke... a slip stroke,but hell I guess you can call it what ever you want,it aint science.



I've played and been around quite a few of the players older than I am and have seen it used a bunch. Cornbread Red had one of the longest slip strokes that I have ever seen.I played him for hours and got to watch him up close.

I should ask,that if that is not a slip stroke..then what really is? I maybe missing out on some new trick:grin:

I've never heard it mentioned but SVB does a little funny move on his final stroke. He does what I would call a "re gripping" of the cue on his last stroke. John B.

I think this is part of the debate -- what do you call it when a player only does a two inch movement that might be a slip stroke or might be a grip adjustment or maybe a "re-gripping" like SVB?

In the case of Cowboy Jimmy Moore and Cornbread they had huge graceful slip strokes. No debate there.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Especially that sound -- even though Willie's grip hand is not visible a lot of the time in that video, those that've used a slip stroke before *know* that sound -- something analogous to a fat chick wearing pantyhouse when she takes a step, but in a higher register (i.e. a "squeak" instead of a "zip").

OMFG! That's hilarious! I was thinking George Costanza in his "swooshy pants", but man, you NAILED it! Lol

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Yes, I can remember it as if it were yesterday (insert flashback music).

I think I got interested in pool right around 1968 or '69. A friend and I went to a bowling alley with his dad and mom one weekend and while they bowled, we discovered the pool room that was part of the bowling alley. My family lived in San Francisco, down by the Cow Palace, and bowling alleys with pool rooms in them were a pretty common setup back then, around there. In fact, just a short walk away from our house was Castle Lanes, where, very early on in life, I learned courtesy of a summer bowling league, that I had absolutely no talent for that game.

But occasionally I'd wander into the pool room there. It had perhaps nine or so old Brunswicks and I'd watch all these old guys bat the balls around. They seemed to favor some odd game where it only mattered if you made a ball in one particular pocket, or perhaps the other. I wouldn't decipher what they doing until much later on in life... Not long after my buddy and I became proud owners of our very own personal pool cues, I learned that Willie Mosconi would be making his annual appearance at Castle Lanes. This was huge. I had watched "The Hustler" several times by now and knew the lore.

So the day of the exhibition, I get out of school early and zoom down to Castle Lanes to get a front row seat. They had recovered the front table and all the old guys already had their favored perches secured. Nonetheless, I squeezed in. Then "he" walked into the pool room. Mosconi was always nattily dressed in sports coat and tie. He'd come into the room with a box of balls and a luggage-style cue case. His hair was pure white and he always had this very elegant, tailored look about him. To warm up, he'd rack all fifteen balls, separate the head ball and set up a break shot off to the left of the rack. The break shots he seemed to favor were always a little steeper than I would have thought comfortable, but they certainly didn't slow him up.

He'd run off two racks and then be done, ready to play his opponent, 150 points of 14.1. Depending on whom he was playing, he'd often kick into the back of the stack and play the head ball two rails into the side, just to give his opponent the chance at a running start. He'd always run at least a 100 and I saw him go 150 and out twice. If he had missed somewhere along the way and got out running a 50, or something like that, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And we'd all go, "Well, yes." And he'd keep shooting and always get the 100. Then he'd shoot some trick shots, including some pretty nifty masses, and then hang around and talk and sign autographs. (It's the only autograph I have ever asked for in my life.)

Perhaps the last time I saw him was towards the late 70s, like maybe 1976, at an appearance in downtown San Francisco at a walk-up bowling alley named, appropriately enough, Downtown Bowl. He did the usual exhibition that I had seen several times before and it was still fascinating. Particularly, as I've mentioned before, because of the way his cue ball behaved. It was extraordinary how it would muscle into the balls and keep diving into them again and again until it had plowed through them all and come out the other side of the cluster or stack, totally unscathed.

So after his exhibition he's standing around, leaning against the table and talking to all the old timers and they're asking all the usual, "Did you ever play...?" "What'd you think of so and so's game?" and I'm trying to get closer to listen in on all this and I'm right by the side pocket of the table he's just finished his exhibition on and I look down and there it is.

Right there, at the bottom of the side pocket, is Mosconi's Cue Ball.

The blue circle on it is staring right back up at me and somehow, it was challenging me. Everyone is focused on Mosconi. No one is looking at me. I stare back into the abyss and realize I have but one moment to make a critical, and yes, criminal, decision. I look down into the pocket and I swear, Mosconi's Cue Ball is virtually howling with laughter at me. I quickly seize the little sucker, muffling it as best I can, stuff it into the pocket of my coat, and dash down the stairs of the establishment scared to death that if Mosconi discovers His Cue Ball is missing, they'll lock down the whole bowling alley -- and perhaps even cordon off the entire downtown district -- until they find the missing orb.

Now, some 40 years later, I still feel bad about the larceny I committed in my callow youth. But it's done and I can't undo it and so Mosconi's Cue Ball now sits, somewhat more meekly and quietly, on my bookshelf of pool books. But I think it still knows it's Mosconi's Cue Ball and now, just every once in a while when I'm sitting at the computer writing about the trials and tribulations of my pool game, I occasionally hear a tiny little giggle coming from behind my back, from somewhere on my book case.

Lou Figueroa

That's a great story, Lou! Larceny was never in my soul, but I'll bet I would have done the same in your circumstance. BTW can we see a pic of this special CB in its resting place sometime?

 

[lfigueroa]

That's a great story, Lou! Larceny was never in my soul, but I'll bet I would have done the same in your circumstance. BTW can we see a pic of this special CB in its resting place sometime?

Thank you and sure.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Nice! Nice pool library, too. Puts mine to shame.

 

[lfigueroa]

Nice! Nice pool library, too. Puts mine to shame.

I shot the pic so you could see the CB. That's only like half me pool library

Lou Figueroa

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I got less than 20 pool books all told. I will never have such a precious memento like you have to display, but someday I hope to find one of these to put on the bookshelf with them. Notice the same yellow color as your Mosconi blue circle ball.

 

[Dan White]

The blue circle on it is staring right back up at me and somehow, it was challenging me. Everyone is focused on Mosconi. No one is looking at me. I stare back into the abyss and realize I have but one moment to make a critical, and yes, criminal, decision. I look down into the pocket and I swear, Mosconi's Cue Ball is virtually howling with laughter at me. I quickly seize the little sucker, muffling it as best I can, stuff it into the pocket of my coat, and dash down the stairs of the establishment scared to death that if Mosconi discovers His Cue Ball is missing, they'll lock down the whole bowling alley -- and perhaps even cordon off the entire downtown district -- until they find the missing orb.

lol. Sounds like something right out of "A Christmas Story."

 

[lfigueroa]

lol. Sounds like something right out of "A Christmas Story."

I will take that as a compliment, Dan. One of my favorite all time writers is the late Jean Shepard. I have all of his books and his style of writing, no doubt, had a major influence on mine.

Lou Figueroa