Most Impressive Fundamentals

[Ballistic Billiards]

Ok, I watched all of it.

I only watched the first two minutes but I didn't see anything that
resembled a piston stroke, or a double fulcrum.

Maybe the first shot where is grip is too tight and the stick comes off
of his bridge hand.

nope, even in this shot, elbow is pinned and pendulum is completed.

From what I saw he's using a very good pendulum swing, which happens
to be the easiest method to perfect and is extremely effective.

Near perfect pendulum, maybe some double fulcrum action.

The piston and double fulcrum techniques are also effective but require much
better timing.

Maybe I'll watch the rest now.

Very good run and, like Allison and most other snooker players,
textbook pendulum.
Maybe someone can post some slow-mo video of a piston stroke.
IMO, mastering a piston stroke is very difficult and carries no real benefit.

The pendulum and double fulcrum are very closely related and hard to differentiate in a video like this one.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I only watched the first two minutes but I didn't see anything that
resembled a piston stroke, or a double fulcrum.

Maybe the first shot where is grip is too tight and the stick comes off
of his bridge hand.

From what I saw he's using a very good pendulum swing, which happens
to be the easiest method to perfect and is extremely effective.

The piston and double fulcrum techniques are also effective but require much
better timing.

Maybe I'll watch the rest now.

Look how much his elbow comes down during the backswing. It's not pinned at all; but rather comes down during the backswing to keep the cue level, in true piston fashion. He's short, so it may not be as noticeable, but notice that the butt of his cue stays very low, even during his power stroke which is extremely long compared to the length of his arms.

Anyway, I agree that it's over-complicated. There's no reason the cue has to be level the whole stroke; if you execute the pendulum correctly it's a much simpler motion, and the cue is level when it needs to be (at contact).

-Andrew

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

Look how much his elbow comes down during the backswing. It's not pinned at all; but rather comes down during the backswing to keep the cue level, in true piston fashion. He's short, so it may not be as noticeable, but notice that the butt of his cue stays very low, even during his power stroke which is extremely long compared to the length of his arms.

Anyway, I agree that it's over-complicated. There's no reason the cue has to be level the whole stroke; if you execute the pendulum correctly it's a much simpler motion, and the cue is level when it needs to be (at contact).

-Andrew

We must have a different understanding of a piston stroke.

The piston, as I understand it, describes the motion of the forward swing,
not the backswing, and can be recognized by the elbow drop and very long
finish.

I have to agree with whoever said he looks like xiao-ting with the elbow drop in the backswing.

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

feel free to jump in, the water's fine

I'm going to try to examine these techniques fully, starting with the
piston, which I've just given some more thought, thanks to this thread.

Starting with the forearm perpendicular to the cue and the cue ~level and
at the strike position.

In the final backswing, the cue remains ~level which requires the elbow
to drop down and the arm to almost straighten out.

In the final forward swing, the shoulder brings the elbow back up to
the same place that it was before the backswing started which brings
the cue through the ball in the same ~level and perpendicular (to the forearm) position.

After contact, the shoulder causes the elbow to drop and to come
down into the line that the cue followed which lengthens the distance
that the tip travels past the point of impact.
The wrist and/or hand also have to bend in order to lay down into
the same plane as the cue stick.

This method requires the use of the shoulder, triceps, biceps, forearm, wrist, and hand (and maybe some lats?).

This could be termed "triple fulcrum"?
Shoulder, elbow and wrist?


In the pendulum swing, the only muscles used are the tricep and bicep.
The cue stick @ the strike position is ~level and perpendicular to the forearm. The only "fulcrum" is the elbow.

In the final backswing, the tricep pulls the stick back and the elbow remains pinned which causes the cue stick to be raised at the back
and pointed somewhat downward. The wrist remains straight and
the grip remains loose.

The forward swing is provided entirely by the bicep and the cue strikes
the ball at the same ~level and perpindicular (to the forearm) position.

At the end of the swing the cue stick may be pointed downward based on
the size and shapes of the shooters arm and body.
This is directly related to how far the hand can travel forward past the
point of contact before being stopped by some part of the shooter's body.


The difference between the pendulum and double fulcrum is slight
and hard to see without the right angle and slow motion video analysis.

The double fulcrum is defined by a loose wrist that provides a snap
@ contact.
This also requires precise timing and being slightly off can mean that
you miss your contact point by a large margin.

In summary, the three most common stroke techniques could be termed:
Single, Double, and Triple "fulcrum".

In all of these methods, using the grip hand to try to stop the forward
motion of the cue stick will result in some degree of error.
IMO, Each method gets progressively more difficult and prone to error.
Any unintentional movement in the back hand will be magnified at the
tip because of the "true" fulcrum point at the bridge hand and it's position
relative to the rest of the cue stick.

Maybe someone wants to edit this post to more clearly define
each method but I think I've captured the essence of each
method based on my understanding of their definitions.

I'm visualizing them clearly but maybe not defining them quite
so well or making assumptions about the general consensus of
them.

 

[dr9ball]

I agree it looks like a pendulum stroke. there's even some evidence for a set, pause and finish. No elbow drop and a pretty smooth transition.

 

[Scott Lee]

Olive...I have to disagree here. The ONLY time the cuestick has to be as level as reasonable (to the shot) is at contact...which is what happens with a pendulum stroke (with the shooter having the correct fundamentals... forearm perpendicular to the cue, at contact with the CB). This kid has that by the way...a classic pendulum swing, with no elbow drop. The dwell time between the CB and tip is about 1/1000th of a second. After contact it doesn't affect what happens to the CB, if you have a longer followthrough. This goes back to what I posted the last time this came up. Dropping the elbow is a choice, not a necessity for power or accuracy.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

the cue is meant to stay parallel to the table all through the stroke. as simple as that - the mechanics can be derived from that.

his elbow is a little off and his head is a bit tilted, also grips his cue a little too hard in the end of the stroke at times. that shows on the first stroke -in order to generate all that screw, he uses the "wrist snap": acceleration during the point of contact. this forces the cue up from the bridge. he is a very talented potter and looks consistant, but obviously very young still... theres many kids like that in the UK - hope he continues to improve.

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

I agree it looks like a pendulum stroke. there's even some evidence for a set, pause and finish. No elbow drop and a pretty smooth transition.

It would be really cool to see a stroke in muscule-o-skeletal form to see
where the actions originate but...

I'd have to say it looks like a piston backswing (I'm missing the point) and pendulumus simplisticarium
finish.

It's magic!! :thumbup:

 

[Scott Lee]

Ed...A piston stroke, by definition, finishes with the elbow pointing down at the table, and the forearm parallel to the cuestick. That is not the technique this young man uses. It is a classic pendulum, with no elbow drop.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I find his technique during this 147 break to be just about flawless.

He is solid. Head perfectly still. Piston stroke, no pendulum.

Ed

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

twitch

Olive...I have to disagree here. The ONLY time the cuestick has to be as level as reasonable (to the shot) is at contact...which is what happens with a pendulum stroke (with the shooter having the correct fundamentals... forearm perpendicular to the cue, at contact with the CB). This kid has that by the way...a classic pendulum swing, with no elbow drop. The dwell time between the CB and tip is about 1/1000th of a second. After contact it doesn't affect what happens to the CB, if you have a longer followthrough. This goes back to what I posted the last time this came up. Dropping the elbow is a choice, not a necessity for power or accuracy.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Don't the shorter inner muscles move faster than the longer outer muscles
as well?

I'd expect to get my stick moving faster with a shorter stroke.
:sorry:

 

[JAW725]

It would be really cool to see a stroke in muscule-o-skeletal form to see
where the actions originate but...

I'd have to say it looks like a piston backswing (I'm missing the point) and pendulumus simplisticarium
finish.
It's magic!! :thumbup:

I absolutely agree with you, even though it resembles a pendulum stroke the elbow definitely lowers on the lads final back swing, keeping the cue stick very level through out. I thought text book pendulum, the elbow is pinned.

 

[Ballistic Billiards]

I absolutely agree with you, even though it resembles a pendulum stroke the elbow definitely lowers on the lads final back swing, keeping the cue stick very level through out. I thought text book pendulum, the elbow is pinned.

It is.
The length of the stroke, back and forward, determines how far
the butt of the cue will ascend the arc.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Ed...A piston stroke, by definition, finishes with the elbow pointing down at the table, and the forearm parallel to the cuestick. That is not the technique this young man uses. It is a classic pendulum, with no elbow drop.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I agree with you for the most part, but he does drop his elbow more for power shots where he takes an extra long backswing. Look at the first shot and the one at 2:25 to see it clearly. If you did your drawing-on-the-screen thing with him it would show up clearly (and you'd probably offer him some advice about it ).

pj
chgo

 

[bell]

Burn in brain

This is a textbook pendulum stroke that even Scott Lee woud envy. I am watching this over and over trying to burn this into my axons and dendrites. I think of this kid now every time I shoot. As someone said "he is so inexperienced he dosent know how good he is". Dang.