Moving During The Shot

[peppersauce]

I do this a lot. Not a good habit, I know. I started trying something different this morning during my practice that seems to help. Instead of watching the OB head towards the intended pocket after contact, I started watching the CB. I’m thinking a lot of my movement has something to do with watching the OB head to the pocket.

I’m not trying to start another discussion about what to look at last before you shoot. What I’m talking about would apply regardless of whether you look at the OB or CB last before pulling the trigger.

This is a failed attempt at one of the drills I was practicing this morning. Still some movement here and there, but the feeling is much better.
https://youtu.be/uG2LrooGpAQ

My question for the instructors out there is, is this something you teach to students? I’m going to experiment more with it but I feel much more solid this way. I figure I’ve done all I can to send the OB into the pocket once I’ve pulled the trigger...it’s either going to go in or it’s not. Not watching the OB head towards the pocket seems to take some of the anxiety out of the equation for me and I feel more solid during delivery.

 

[garczar]

I do this a lot. Not a good habit, I know. I started trying something different this morning during my practice that seems to help. Instead of watching the OB head towards the intended pocket after contact, I started watching the CB. I’m thinking a lot of my movement has something to do with watching the OB head to the pocket.

I’m not trying to start another discussion about what to look at last before you shoot. What I’m talking about would apply regardless of whether you look at the OB or CB last before pulling the trigger.

This is a failed attempt at one of the drills I was practicing this morning. Still some movement here and there, but the feeling is much better.
https://youtu.be/uG2LrooGpAQ

My question for the instructors out there is, is this something you teach to students? I’m going to experiment more with it but I feel much more solid this way. I figure I’ve done all I can to send the OB into the pocket once I’ve pulled the trigger...it’s either going to go in or it’s not. Not watching the OB head towards the pocket seems to take some of the anxiety out of the equation for me and I feel more solid during delivery.

Tuff drill. Nice background tunes. Seriously, i have a question: are you saying you look at the CB when pulling the trigger or you look at the OB then go back to the CB after the shot? Look pretty solid here to me.

 

[peppersauce]

Tuff drill. Nice background tunes. Seriously, i have a question: are you saying you look at the CB when pulling the trigger or you look at the OB then go back to the CB after the shot? Look pretty solid here to me.

Personally, I look at the contact point on the OB every time I shoot. I know there’s been a lot of discussion/debate about if it’s best to look at the CB last or OB last.

What I’m talking about is after the CB hits the OB. I usually watch the OB as it heads to the hole, but I tend start adding body English, especially under pressure. Just experimenting, I started fixing my eyes on the CB after contact instead and immediately noticed that I felt more solid and wasn’t jumping up or moving around as much.

Like I said, after I pull the trigger I’ve done all I can do to make the ball. If it doesn’t go in, it doesn’t go in. I feel like not being so invested in the OB after I’ve delivered the cue is allowing me feel more solid. I’m still playing around with the idea. Just wondered if any instructors teach their students anything along those lines.

And the drill...yeah that’s a rough one. Too hard for my skill level really, but it’s good for working on stuff like this I think. The farther along I get the more pressure I feel. If I’m going to start in with all the body English and moving around, it’s going to be later in the drill.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... My question for the instructors out there is, is this something you teach to students? ...

If the student has a lot of movement one thing I try is to have them watch not the cue ball but the cue stick and focus on the ferrule/tip. One the final stroke I ask them to watch the tip come straight back and straight through. I find this often helps reduce unwanted movement, like coming up at the end of the shot.

 

[Imac007]

Finish the stroke

In golf putting lifting up is called yips. Research shows that it involves a hurried stroke with peak velocity at contact. In simple terms they hit at the ball and momentum needs to go somewhere. The path of least resistance is up.

The golfers that didn’t lift up had a stroke that was longer to contact and accelerated through the ball.

A researcher out of University of Calgary, Joan Vickers, found that gaze length was related to success in putting. She called the process "quiet eyes". Good putters, just before their final stroke, focused on their target longer than poorer putters.

The two findings suggest that the final stroke should be separate from other feathering and that the eyes need time to focus in on the perceived target,

As to which ball to track after contact, in the interest of staying centered and cueing straight the answer is neither and both. The interaction on a cut creates a Y shape with the one ball going left and the other right. This fits with the gaze concept. The cue follows through onto the impact zone where the two paths diverge. Keep balanced and cue through straight.

 

[peppersauce]

If the student has a lot of movement one thing I try is to have them watch not the cue ball but the cue stick and focus on the ferrule/tip. One the final stroke I ask them to watch the tip come straight back and straight through. I find this often helps reduce unwanted movement, like coming up at the end of the shot.

I tried this and it made my eyes hurt, lol. Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but I tried to stroke normally while watching my ferrule move backward and forward on my final stroke like you said. I was still making balls while looking at my ferrule but my eyes started hurting. I’m not used to watching a moving target while I’m delivering the cue. How often do you have students do this exercise? I was just setting up shots at different angles and distances to try it out.

 

[peppersauce]

In golf putting lifting up is called yips. Research shows that it involves a hurried stroke with peak velocity at contact. In simple terms they hit at the ball and momentum needs to go somewhere. The path of least resistance is up.

The golfers that didn’t lift up had a stroke that was longer to contact and accelerated through the ball.

A researcher out of University of Calgary, Joan Vickers, found that gaze length was related to success in putting. She called the process "quiet eyes". Good putters, just before their final stroke, focused on their target longer than poorer putters.

The two findings suggest that the final stroke should be separate from other feathering and that the eyes need time to focus in on the perceived target,

As to which ball to track after contact, in the interest of staying centered and cueing straight the answer is neither and both. The interaction on a cut creates a Y shape with the one ball going left and the other right. This fits with the gaze concept. The cue follows through onto the impact zone where the two paths diverge. Keep balanced and cue through straight.

That’s interesting. I don’t play golf, but I’ve read in several different places that there are many parallels between a good golf swing and good cue action—particularly putting.

So if I’m understanding the gaze as it relates to pool, one would focus on the target (contact point on the OB in my case), deliver the cue, and not shift their eyes anywhere—basically observe the results of the shot as one whole picture using peripheral vision. Am I understanding that correctly?

Generally, I think I do stay solid while delivering the cue. Most of my movement seems to happen after the CB contacts the OB, or at least after the CB has left the cue tip. It becomes a problem when I’m under pressure and begin to make those little movements while delivering the cue on the final stroke, applying unwanted spin and/or missing balls, etc. My thinking is if I can somehow minimize any kind of movement during practice, I’ll be less likely to move while delivering the cue under pressure.

 

[Imac007]

Other research reveals that the eyes have 24 muscles (12 pairs). 16 are under conscious control. 12 track or scan, while 4 focus. Then again from quiet eye research we find more. Experienced putters eye movements were smoother scanning the line from ball to hole while inexperienced putters eye movements were more erratic, jumping between the balls sporadically.

There are two attention networks, the ventral and dorsal attention networks, (VAN, DAN). The VAN network is responsible for switching visual attention from one location to another. The DAN system is used to sustain attention on one location or goal, potentially blocking harmful memories and emotions that can contribute to higher levels of anxiety and lower levels of performance. Each engage the relevant muscles during each stage of performance. The importance of having the DAN system in control during execution stands out in the bigger picture. Quiet eyes get you there.

Research on focus talks about an "attention Window". Basically it’s the frame or spotlight on what is standing out to the viewer. Under stress, when putters were asked about hole size, after putting, described the hole as looking smaller.

Sometimes participants in self paced target situations, experience "cognitive magnification". Not only does the object appear to occupy more of the attention window, details emerged confirming size experience.

By extension a hole looking smaller under stress would lose detail. It makes sense that looking at the smaller details, like lint, hair or flecks of chalk on ball paths or exact pocket opening targets, recapturing details should help under stress. Get your eyes closer to the object ball to see the angle more clearly. Hold that focus while returning to behind the cue ball. "See the shot!!"

It’s about coping. The trick is to find what works for you. If it’s accelerating through the ball helps stay down. Use that. If "quiet eyes" gets you still and focused, and you finish your stroke in the process. Use that. Whatever it takes.

 

[FranCrimi]

Watching the object ball roll to the pocket can definitely make you want to lift your head. But that should only be happening after impact. If you're concerned about movement prior to or at impact, then you can also focus on the point where the cb hits the ob, and keep your vision there for a second more, even after the balls are gone from that spot. Then you can look up if you want. The shot would have been over at that point.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I tried this and it made my eyes hurt, lol. Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but I tried to stroke normally while watching my ferrule move backward and forward on my final stroke like you said. I was still making balls while looking at my ferrule but my eyes started hurting. I’m not used to watching a moving target while I’m delivering the cue. How often do you have students do this exercise? I was just setting up shots at different angles and distances to try it out.

I'm puzzled. I have never heard anyone complain about their eyes hurting from this exercise. If I had to guess, I'd say you were getting farsighted. You may want to ask your ophthalmologist/optometrist if there is some issue with your eyes. It may be that you need a correction so that you can focus both on the tip of the cue and the farthest pocket.

I try this with students who have a lot of body/head movement during the shot.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I do this a lot. Not a good habit, I know. I started trying something different this morning during my practice that seems to help. Instead of watching the OB head towards the intended pocket after contact, I started watching the CB. I’m thinking a lot of my movement has something to do with watching the OB head to the pocket.

I’m not trying to start another discussion about what to look at last before you shoot. What I’m talking about would apply regardless of whether you look at the OB or CB last before pulling the trigger.

This is a failed attempt at one of the drills I was practicing this morning. Still some movement here and there, but the feeling is much better.
https://youtu.be/uG2LrooGpAQ

My question for the instructors out there is, is this something you teach to students? I’m going to experiment more with it but I feel much more solid this way. I figure I’ve done all I can to send the OB into the pocket once I’ve pulled the trigger...it’s either going to go in or it’s not. Not watching the OB head towards the pocket seems to take some of the anxiety out of the equation for me and I feel more solid during delivery.

Working the rock is the soul of the game--and long runs. Tuesday night, I shot a ball and got onto the next one when my opponent said my ob had jawed! That's how much I was focused on whitey.

Moving with the shot is okay, down and straight, for some players. Some truly great players are/were less than immobile on shots.

 

[Scott Lee]

Kyle...Yes, this is something that some instructors teach (I do). IMO, something even more important is to stand perfectly still until you finish your stroke. A consistent PEP (eye pattern) helps a lot. If you're interested, I can show you this the next time I'm in CO.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I do this a lot. Not a good habit, I know. I started trying something different this morning during my practice that seems to help. Instead of watching the OB head towards the intended pocket after contact, I started watching the CB. I’m thinking a lot of my movement has something to do with watching the OB head to the pocket.

I’m not trying to start another discussion about what to look at last before you shoot. What I’m talking about would apply regardless of whether you look at the OB or CB last before pulling the trigger.

This is a failed attempt at one of the drills I was practicing this morning. Still some movement here and there, but the feeling is much better.
https://youtu.be/uG2LrooGpAQ

My question for the instructors out there is, is this something you teach to students? I’m going to experiment more with it but I feel much more solid this way. I figure I’ve done all I can to send the OB into the pocket once I’ve pulled the trigger...it’s either going to go in or it’s not. Not watching the OB head towards the pocket seems to take some of the anxiety out of the equation for me and I feel more solid during delivery.

 

[Scott Lee]

Another recipe for disaster from someone who should know better...but apparently doesn't!

While it's certainly true that some great players of yesteryear moved all over the place, when they struck the CB....and you can still see professional players that do this today. That said, the BEST players in the world overwhelmingly finish and freeze, at the end of their routine. It's what all SPF instructors teach, because it works!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Moving with the shot is okay, down and straight, for some players. Some truly great players are/were less than immobile on shots.

 

[peppersauce]

Kyle...Yes, this is something that some instructors teach (I do). IMO, something even more important is to stand perfectly still until you finish your stroke. A consistent PEP (eye pattern) helps a lot. If you're interested, I can show you this the next time I'm in CO.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I’m not Kyle and I don’t live in Colorado, but if you’re ever in the St. Louis area I’d be happy to meet up with you, sir. :smile:

 

[garczar]

I’m not Kyle and I don’t live in Colorado, but if you’re ever in the St. Louis area I’d be happy to meet up with you, sir. :smile:

Well hell, i always thought you were Jerry in Jersey.

 

[peppersauce]

Well hell, i always thought you were Jerry in Jersey.

You know better, sir! Lol. I spent one day in Jersey on one of my trips to NYC and that was enough for me. If I were Jerry in Jersey, that might be my screen name though...sorta has a nice ring to it. Jesse from Tulsa just doesn’t sound right, you know? :grin-square:

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Another recipe for disaster from someone who should know better...but apparently doesn't!

While it's certainly true that some great players of yesteryear moved all over the place, when they struck the CB....and you can still see professional players that do this today. That said, the BEST players in the world overwhelmingly finish and freeze, at the end of their routine. It's what all SPF instructors teach, because it works!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hello Scott,

1) Feel free to disagree, but stop being rude when you disagree.

2) I distrust "one size fits all" pool teaching, which can lead to frustration for students.

3) I've had students who before our lesson moved during their shots, for decades, and rather than demanding they change everything to fit my "school", I ask them to move with their shots instead. Their games improved immediately and they tended to move less during the stroke, too.

4) Think outside the box. Why do most pros remain immobile? And are there players who would be pros now but someone told them when they were first running racks, "Be immobile!" and so butchered their touch and their pool games?

 

[Low500]

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[Scott Lee]

My mistake, sir! I would certainly be interested to share with you the information you're seeking. Mark Wilson, in the St. Louis area, would be another great choice!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I’m not Kyle and I don’t live in Colorado, but if you’re ever in the St. Louis area I’d be happy to meet up with you, sir. :smile:

 

[Scott Lee]

Sorry Matt, but I have to call a spade, a spade. That's not being rude, merely stating well known facts and practices that MOST instructors (including 200+ SPF instructors) believe in, and adhere to. I also believe and preach that there's no "one size fits all" process with poolplayers.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hello Scott,

1) Feel free to disagree, but stop being rude when you disagree.

2) I distrust "one size fits all" pool teaching, which can lead to frustration for students.

3) I've had students who before our lesson moved during their shots, for decades, and rather than demanding they change everything to fit my "school", I ask them to move with their shots instead. Their games improved immediately and they tended to move less during the stroke, too.

4) Think outside the box. Why do most pros remain immobile? And are there players who would be pros now but someone told them when they were first running racks, "Be immobile!" and so butchered their touch and their pool games?