Mp ?

[Cue Crazy]

I use MP rod as a replacement material for ferrules on cues with that type of hit and feel ocasionally, I use It to keep them feeling close to what the customer is used to & the original, unless they decide to try a new material. Probably easy to guess the make of cue.
Anyway just like the original, the MP is prone to cracking if someone uses It to break with also. Most people's cues hold up fine with It as they don't break with it, but I have one customer that It may hold up 8 months, and like clock work they start to crack under the tip. I have tried everything from a stronger material to capped & fibre pads, but he is sensitive to the changes in feel with those, and only Likes the MP with a open tenon end.
Has anyone found a replacement with the same feel, but stronger? Or maybe something that a fellow could do that will help with the MP, without changing the feel in the proccess.
BTW, My tenons are just slighlty snug, so I don't suspect a overly tight fit is the problem.

Just thought I'd bounce It of some minds at the think tank here, and see If I am the only one with this problem .
Thanks Guys,
Greg

 

[Jack Flanagan]

most of "that brand" of cue have the same problem,,,seems every one that I've repaired has also had a split tenon,,,,I replace the 3/8" tenon with a 5/16" one,,,none of my customers have complained,,, jflan

 

[Cue Crazy]

most of "that brand" of cue have the same problem,,,seems every one that I've repaired has also had a split tenon,,,,I replace the 3/8" tenon with a 5/16" one,,,none of my customers have complained,,, jflan

Thanks Jack,

They are really bad about that, and I have had them come in split also, then I had to replace the tenon all together. I have done that 5/16 tenon many of time Myself, You are correct the extra wall thickness certainly does seem to solve the cracking, I have also had to do that because the diameter of a shaft had become so small that there was not enough wall thickness with a larger tenon. Just that with this paticular customer, I have to admitt I'm alittle paranoid that he will be overly sensitive, and notice the difference in deflection.
Even with the large tenon It looked like there should be enough wall thickness there, but I guess he's cracking them pretty hard with the cue, so not really having any other options, the next time I guess I'll go with a 5/16 tenon like you mentioned. I have had no problems from doing that in the past, so maybe It will still work for him.
Now that I think of It, I did do something once before that might cut down on any extra deflection since the cracking is at the tip & no problem at the bottom where It meets the wood. I once did a step tenon where the bottom half was 3/8 and It stepped down to 5/16 at the tip. That might keep the deflection closer, while giving the end a thicker wall dia to reduce the cracking issue.
I guess where's there's a will there's a way.

Thanks again, Greg

 

[Alaskin Assasin]

Hello,


Maybe try viking ferrules? I have a few I was given to try out but haven't got around to it yet, I have yet to hear of one cracking, as for the hit?????????
Bryan Fisher
Fisher Cues

 

[Ridge Runner]

Greg,
I used to use MP ferrules exclusively, but had the same problems you mentioned. I swithed to Ivorine III and like the hit just as well. I also get good english action with it. But , I'm sure you tried this already?
John

 

[Cue Crazy]

Greg,
I used to use MP ferrules exclusively, but had the same problems you mentioned. I swithed to Ivorine III and like the hit just as well. I also get good english action with it. But , I'm sure you tried this already?
John

Thanks, I think I may have tried either II or III, but I usually cap those, so between that and the material change, He had a hard time ajusting. I do have some titan rod, and have yet to use It, so I have no idea what characteristics it has, other then It's a softer type material that can be used as a fibre substitute, and does seem as if It would'nt sponge moisture as bad, but as far as It's feel and strenth, I dont' know yet. I was going to start using It on the house cues, and go from there. The ones I get in will put them to the test , and should atleast give Me an idea as to what kind of abuse It can take without splitting. Greg

 

[Jon]

Greg,

If you are afraid he won't like the 5/16 tenon, you could always just turn the tenon down to around .340-.350".
It would give you a little more ferrule wall thickness, and I highly doubt the customer would notice if you didn't tell him.
If the ferrule cracks again?
Just turn the tenon down a little more until it stops cracking.

Just a mindless rambling at 20 till one in the morning,

Jon

 

[JoeyInCali]

Greg,

If you are afraid he won't like the 5/16 tenon, you could always just turn the tenon down to around .340-.350".
It would give you a little more ferrule wall thickness, and I highly doubt the customer would notice if you didn't tell him.
If the ferrule cracks again?
Just turn the tenon down a little more until it stops cracking.

Just a mindless rambling at 20 till one in the morning,

Jon

My math must be off since .340-.350 is thicker than 5/16 to me. The ferrule will have a thinner wall.
Then again I don't like unthreaded ferrule.
I suggest Atlas's LBM ferrule.

 

[Jon]

Yes, your math is off.
I'm talking about .340-.350 is THINNER than the original .375" tenon.
Therefore, you will get a thicker wall than the original.
If it cracks, shave it down a little more.
If it keeps cracking, he'll probably just end up with a 5/16" tenon anyway, at least this way, the customer will have had time to get used to a thicker ferrule .
I don't like unthreaded/uncapped either.
You suggest blackboard chalk?

 

[Cue Crazy]

Thanks Guys,

Well, I was going to try the 5/16, or a hair larger tenon, but would'nt you know It the Mp rod I have was already bored out, and It is larger then 5/16. In fact It was just shy of 3/8. Anyway, what I ended up doing was cutting a ferrule lenth off, indicated the inside bore, faced It, then slightly trimmed the tenon to fit. I usually bore My ferrules, and face & thread at the same time, but had to go that way due to the larger bore in the material.

I aggree, and prefer to thread them on shafts I make, or the ones that come in that way, but usually stick with the original design unless someone specifically wants a modification. I've had good luck with My glues holding up in the slip tenon designs, but I still prefer to thread My own. The so called built-in clamp, sure makes glueing them up alot easier, and I can snug them on so tight at the bottom that the shaft would probably break before the threads would strip out on me. I tend to wonder if a threaded ferrule might deflect less then a slip tenon. I'm sure it would if the slip tenon did not have enough clamping force used, undersized tenon, or a good enough glue, but I wonder about the two styles with a perfect installation done on each?

I've known him for a long time now, and This guy is like me, on a bad night he may get down to a high "b" or lower, but when He is hitting on all cylinders he is in the low "a" and up range, otherwise I would write it off as inexperience. Possible it is mental though, because no matter what level, that can be a problem for most at one time or another anyway. I'm no stranger to it Myself, especially when I'm stuck working and rarely get to play.

Now here's where the problem may be. He has had this cue for many years, and the shaft is fairly small dia, from years of use with those green scrubbies, and I believe It was small to begin with. It also has a super long pro taper. Now with this make having the deflection reputation that it does, combined with the smaller dia, and his style of play, It may be giving him a hard time. He likes to stroke deep alot, as some players do, and it may just be too much for it. He just mentioned to me the other night that he can pick up one of the housecues that I maintain, and play just as well or better with it, and was considering buying another make cue. From watching his stroke, I'm starting to think that may be the best thing for him, unless he wants a new shaft for the old one.

His cue now also has a un-usually small dia. joint, so his issues could go that far up also for all I know, and maybe the change would be a good thing. Think I'm going to let him hit with a few I've made, and some production models that we have to figure out what might best suite him, and possibly build him something in the future to match his style, but he also sells productions, so can get a good price on something he can use for now, and I could just make any ferrule & tip changes He may need done should It come to that.

My appologies for the long post, and thanks for the suggestions guys. It really helps to reassure My own thoughts on issues like this. It's the only time I have had such a hard time fine tuning materials to fit a customer's needs. Sometimes it may take a couple of changes, but It usually ends in praise of how well It is working out for them. After all in the end that's really what form of payment I receive, and the reason I continue to work at it.

Greg

 

[MVPCues]

My appologies for the long post, and thanks for the suggestions guys.
Greg

What long post?? I don't see one...


It sounds to me like you need to make him a shaft from some straight grained dowel you have lying around, use the taper he likes without having it worn down to a toothpick...

Kelly

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

I've used MP with a 19/64"(.296), hole for years. Plays great, less filling. By the way I don't use threaded ferrules, I use Duro Gel & don't have ANY problems or failures...JER

 

[Cue Crazy]

What long post?? I don't see one...


It sounds to me like you need to make him a shaft from some straight grained dowel you have lying around, use the taper he likes without having it worn down to a toothpick...

Kelly

LOL, Yeah not like I'd ever do that huh,

I should talk him into letting me make him a shaft, but only have a few shafts ready to go. Have'nt been able to do much with that other batch with all that was going on here the last few months. I'm just getting caught up on the repair work I put off during that time. I do think I got the test shaft setup like I want, so I'll probably start turning that whole batch at the same time. Then somehow have to reup on some serious quanity Greg

 

[MVPCues]

Then somehow have to reup on some serious quanity Greg

That has been a little itch here also...have to try and see if it can be scratched...

Kelly

 

[Cue Crazy]

I've used MP with a 19/64"(.296), hole for years. Plays great, less filling. By the way I don't use threaded ferrules, I use Duro Gel & don't have ANY problems or failures...JER

Yeah, the material is fine, and It does play very well, I usually have no failures with them either, and I just use epoxy myself. They hold up for a while, but he does break with the cue, and cracks them very hard. They still hold up for quite a while, but eventually with this paticular guy they start to spider on the ends. I can't heat the old ferrule up and twist them off, and have to resort to trimming them off. Even when I get down to that last small sliver of material, the glue is still holding. Usually by the time I get most ferrules that far down, the slivers just roll right off, so the glue is doing It's job.
I could not positively say that either threaded or slip style are better then the other, as I use both and they both work fine for me. Greg

 

[JoeyInCali]

Yeah, the material is fine, and It does play very well, I usually have no failures with them either, and I just use epoxy myself. They hold up for a while, but he does break with the cue, and cracks them very hard. They still hold up for quite a while, but eventually with this paticular guy they start to spider on the ends. I can't heat the old ferrule up and twist them off, and have to resort to trimming them off. Even when I get down to that last small sliver of material, the glue is still holding. Usually by the time I get most ferrules that far down, the slivers just roll right off, so the glue is doing It's job.
I could not positively say that either threaded or slip style are better then the other, as I use both and they both work fine for me. Greg

Why not use Titebond wood glue so you can heat it off next time?
Leave the ferrule capped?

 

[Cue Crazy]

Why not use Titebond wood glue so you can heat it off next time?
Leave the ferrule capped?

I have some, and I probably should use It. Guess I kind of like the fact I can't get them off with the epoxy, so I have just stuck with that. I'm just funny like that with the slip tenons. Not sure that another maker would enjoy taking them off though .

Thought of that Myself, and I already tried capping, he did'nt like the feel, so I tried using a thin cap, and even just a plain ol backer, but no help came from any of it. It has Me stumped. he's been one of the hardest fittings I have come accross, and I'm really starting to think He just needs a stiffer shaft or a different taper style. Especially by the fact he mentioned the house cues playing so well for him. Dufferins with fibre ferrules. He's got one picked out that he's been using, so I need to look at it, see what attributes I can find on the taper, and what I can gather from It to help him out.

The shaft in question has a super long straight taper, so If his stroke will allow some room for me to shorten It up on another shaft, It may help him, or possible the taper I use will help. Atleast that's what I'm thinking. Possible a shorter ferrule may reduce some deflection also. That's one reason why I want to let him hit with a few different taper styles before deciding the best alternative. Hoping to stay away from too much guess work this way, If that's what things come down too, and just make the nessesary changes.

I really need to sit down a talk with him, so I can get a better idea of what he is seeing. I watch him when I can, and the deeper strokes are the only major problem I'm seeing, that's capped or uncapped, so I'm thinking even the back arm is moving, or simply too much shaft flex.

I have a tendency to not stay down on My shots because of My aching back from cue work , and move my back arm every once in a while also, but I have not noticed that happening with him too often, so I keep coming to the same conclusion about the taper. But then again the uncapped MP has worked for him at times, It's just spidered after 8 months or so of breaking and play, and now he's acts like even the same setup I had on there before is not working now, so I'm getting mixed signals, and it's kind of confusing. I don't want to start thinking It's mental, because I give him enough credit to see the differences, and believe he would be aware of that, but then again, even I'm not always that good at seeing it Myself, so who knows.