My Aftermarket Shaft Doesn't Fit Perfect

Mickey Qualls

Mickey Qualls

You study the watch......
Silver Member
Hi all, and thanks in advance for any input and advice...

I ordered a lower end aftermarket shaft last week (from a billiard supply company, not a private seller). I received the shaft yesterday, hit a few balls, and I'm lovin' the feel of it.
I'm more than satisfied with the performance of the selection I've made.

But I'm a bit anal when it comes to cue aesthetics. The joint (3/8x10) screws on, no problems. The issue is that when the cue is together, the aftermarket shaft isn't "centered" on the butt.
I've tried the new shaft on other 3/8x10 cues I have, and have been able to determine that it's the new shaft that has the 'off center' issue.

When the shaft is on the butt, on the two extreme sides, one side will be perfectly flush, and the other side will have a 'ledge' on the shaft where the two pieces meet.
The difference is minimal, maybe... half a millimeter. Not enough to notice at table length, but would be easily visible if... say my cue was laying on the table and I was racking. If you came over to tell me something, there's a halfway decent chance you would notice the 'lip' or 'ledge'.

The seller has a return policy in the form of merchandise credit. And I'm sure I could find something that would meet or beat the price paid for the shaft:rolleyes:, if I choose to go that route. So a 'merchant issue' is not my 'beef'.
And if I were sold a complete cue that had this issue, I would expect nothing less than perfectly flush. But this is an aftermarket shaft, and the greater majority of sellers claim (rightfully) that 'this shaft may not fit flush with your existing cue'.

If the 'lip' was the same all the way around the joint, I could 'accept' that. If that were the case, I wouldn't be asking the question here.

My question is, would you return the aftermarket shaft that is slightly off center (for either another shaft or something similar in price)... or 'just learn to live with it', accept that the shaft isn't 'perfectly centered', and enjoy the hit and feel of it ?

I'm interested to hear other opinions...
 
Not sure what you payed for the shaft but if it were me I would ask them to send me a new one. If you have already used the shaft they may give you some grief but it's worth a shot.
 
Question for ya.... When you look at the joint from the top down on the butt end... is the screw in the middle of the joint or slightly off center?

Same for the shaft.... when you look at the hole from the top down is it in the center or slightly off?

If its the butt end that is off you may be out of luck.
 
I had the same issue years ago when I bought a 314 for a Joss cue I have. The joint was off about the same as you describe, maybe the width of a playing card at most. Honestly it only bugged me when I was focused more on the equipment than my game. Once I started playing it made zero difference and I'd forget about it.

That said, I've been looking to add a second shaft to another cue, and I am much more inclined to send it to a cuemaker and have them match up the butt and new shaft. Again, it will have zero impact while I'm playing... only when I'm sitting around thinking about playing.

I think the problem is that I (and maybe you) get so hung up on equipment stuff when I am sitting at work, unable to shoot, thinking the next cue or next shaft or next set of Aramith Tournament balls will make me happier and shoot better. In truth, what will make me happier is blowing off a Friday at work and hitting the table for a few hours of un-interrupted play. I'll take that over a perfect fitting shaft any day.

Happy Friday. :smile:

- James
 
The only shafts I have ever had that fit perfectly around the joint were made when the maker had both the butt and shaft to work with.

If a perfect fit is required, then one would bebest off not shopping price...and being prepared to sent the butt off for said perfection.

I would deal with it, but consider my self far from anal*.

*when it comes to cues...I have been told I am an ass, generally.
 
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Mickey Qualls said:
Hi all, and thanks in advance for any input and advice...

I ordered a lower end aftermarket shaft last week (from a billiard supply company, not a private seller). I received the shaft yesterday, hit a few balls, and I'm lovin' the feel of it.
I'm more than satisfied with the performance of the selection I've made.

But I'm a bit anal when it comes to cue aesthetics. The joint (3/8x10) screws on, no problems. The issue is that when the cue is together, the aftermarket shaft isn't "centered" on the butt.
I've tried the new shaft on other 3/8x10 cues I have, and have been able to determine that it's the new shaft that has the 'off center' issue.

When the shaft is on the butt, on the two extreme sides, one side will be perfectly flush, and the other side will have a 'ledge' on the shaft where the two pieces meet.
The difference is minimal, maybe... half a millimeter. Not enough to notice at table length, but would be easily visible if... say my cue was laying on the table and I was racking. If you came over to tell me something, there's a halfway decent chance you would notice the 'lip' or 'ledge'.

The seller has a return policy in the form of merchandise credit. And I'm sure I could find something that would meet or beat the price paid for the shaft:rolleyes:, if I choose to go that route. So a 'merchant issue' is not my 'beef'.
And if I were sold a complete cue that had this issue, I would expect nothing less than perfectly flush. But this is an aftermarket shaft, and the greater majority of sellers claim (rightfully) that 'this shaft may not fit flush with your existing cue'.

If the 'lip' was the same all the way around the joint, I could 'accept' that. If that were the case, I wouldn't be asking the question here.

My question is, would you return the aftermarket shaft that is slightly off center (for either another shaft or something similar in price)... or 'just learn to live with it', accept that the shaft isn't 'perfectly centered', and enjoy the hit and feel of it ?

I'm interested to hear other opinions...
Click to expand...

Mickey:

This is the reason why some people prefer piloted joints, rather than a flat-faced big pin (e.g. 3/8 x 10). There's a reason for the pilot -- to prevent the situation you describe, where you might have an off-center mating of the joint, where there's a lip on either side. That is the problem with the "big pin" style joints -- any imperfections in the raw wood where that big pin screws in, and you're left with a lip. Even the venerable (and most accurate of the big pins) Radial pin suffers this anomaly -- it's just what happens with flat-faced, non-piloted joints. However, there are differences between the big pins, and how they mate with their wood surfaces. For instance, how *much* of the pin's surface is touching wood, has an effect on the accuracy of its mating. The 3/8 x 10 pin, although a classic pin, is also a "sloppy" pin -- less than 50% of that pin's surface is contacting actual wood when the pin is screwed in. If you were to saw your jointed cue down the middle, through the mated joint (cutting the joint in half length-wise), you'd find that only the back side of the threads is actually touching wood. The rest is just air. And, the peaks and valleys in the threads in the wood aren't touching the pin at all.

The lip obviously has no affect on the performance of the cue. But perhaps you might want to reconsider your choice of pin? The Radial pin is designed such that as much of the wood surface is contacting the pin as possible. The concentric "hills" in the radial-cut threads in the wood have more surface area to touch the pin than a simple sawtooth cut.

The same is true, by the way, with the Modified 3/8 x 10 pin as is for the Radial pin. In fact, the following picture may help with the description of what I mean by "what parts of the pin actually touch wood":

attachment.php

The near-perfect wood-to-metal contact of the Modified 3/8 x 10 pin (and with the Radial pin, not shown in the picture) helps the pin to always seat correctly -- you'll get a much better mating of the joint surfaces than with a plain 3/8 x 10 pin. Not as good as a piloted joint, but it will be the best you can get with a non-piloted big pin.

You can either choose to have your existing 3/8 x 10 pin replaced by a Radial pin (this is a standard job offered by any good cue repairman), or with a piloted joint, or even with a Modified 3/8 x 10. The Modified 3/8 x 10 is really cool, because the "bolt" part (bottom-most diameter of the steel past the threads) of the screw is slightly larger than the "bolt" part of a standard 3/8 x 10, so all that needs to be done to the shaft, is to drill-out the existing hole such that the tops of the existing threads are "flattened" (i.e. take the points or peaks off).

Just some ideas. Again, the performance of your cue is not affected, but the inherent sloppy nature of the 3/8 x 10 pin is causing the aesthetics issue. If it bothers you that much, have your joint replaced with either a piloted joint, or a Radial, or a Modified 3/8 x 10 pin.

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
 
Mickey Qualls said:
Hi all, and thanks in advance for any input and advice...

I ordered a lower end aftermarket shaft last week (from a billiard supply company, not a private seller). I received the shaft yesterday, hit a few balls, and I'm lovin' the feel of it.
I'm more than satisfied with the performance of the selection I've made.

But I'm a bit anal when it comes to cue aesthetics. The joint (3/8x10) screws on, no problems. The issue is that when the cue is together, the aftermarket shaft isn't "centered" on the butt.
I've tried the new shaft on other 3/8x10 cues I have, and have been able to determine that it's the new shaft that has the 'off center' issue.

When the shaft is on the butt, on the two extreme sides, one side will be perfectly flush, and the other side will have a 'ledge' on the shaft where the two pieces meet.
The difference is minimal, maybe... half a millimeter. Not enough to notice at table length, but would be easily visible if... say my cue was laying on the table and I was racking. If you came over to tell me something, there's a halfway decent chance you would notice the 'lip' or 'ledge'.

The seller has a return policy in the form of merchandise credit. And I'm sure I could find something that would meet or beat the price paid for the shaft:rolleyes:, if I choose to go that route. So a 'merchant issue' is not my 'beef'.
And if I were sold a complete cue that had this issue, I would expect nothing less than perfectly flush. But this is an aftermarket shaft, and the greater majority of sellers claim (rightfully) that 'this shaft may not fit flush with your existing cue'.

If the 'lip' was the same all the way around the joint, I could 'accept' that. If that were the case, I wouldn't be asking the question here.

My question is, would you return the aftermarket shaft that is slightly off center (for either another shaft or something similar in price)... or 'just learn to live with it', accept that the shaft isn't 'perfectly centered', and enjoy the hit and feel of it ?

I'm interested to hear other opinions...
Click to expand...


Wait a minute, You say quote

"I received the shaft yesterday, hit a few balls, and I'm lovin' the feel of it. "

That is the bottom line. I have played with shafts that were off different cues, mismatched joint designs and the last thing I really cared about was the way it looked. You go to pro tournaments and you see it all the time shafts that don't match the cue, mix and matched and so on. If I liked a shaft as much as you seem to like this shaft, you could not get it away from me without a fight.
It doesn't sound like you even paid that much money for it and got lucky enough to have a shaft the you really like.
Man' you are already ahead.
 
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Sounds like they just tapped the hole off center. I bought a Tiger shaft where the thread hole was so bad, it made the cue look like it had a huge roll out, when in fact it was just drilled at an angle.

Send the shaft back and tell them it was tapped crooked. The only way to ensure the shaft mates perfectly is to have someone fit it with the butt. Even if it doesn't match, it should still be uniformly larger or smaller all the way around.
 
sfleinen said:
Mickey:

This is the reason why some people prefer piloted joints, rather than a flat-faced big pin (e.g. 3/8 x 10). There's a reason for the pilot -- to prevent the situation you describe, where you might have an off-center mating of the joint, where there's a lip on either side. That is the problem with the "big pin" style joints -- any imperfections in the raw wood where that big pin screws in, and you're left with a lip. Even the venerable (and most accurate of the big pins) Radial pin suffers this anomaly -- it's just what happens with flat-faced, non-piloted joints. However, there are differences between the big pins, and how they mate with their wood surfaces. For instance, how *much* of the pin's surface is touching wood, has an effect on the accuracy of its mating. The 3/8 x 10 pin, although a classic pin, is also a "sloppy" pin -- less than 50% of that pin's surface is contacting actual wood when the pin is screwed in. If you were to saw your jointed cue down the middle, through the mated joint (cutting the joint in half length-wise), you'd find that only the back side of the threads is actually touching wood. The rest is just air. And, the peaks and valleys in the threads in the wood aren't touching the pin at all.

The lip obviously has no affect on the performance of the cue. But perhaps you might want to reconsider your choice of pin? The Radial pin is designed such that as much of the wood surface is contacting the pin as possible. The concentric "hills" in the radial-cut threads in the wood have more surface area to touch the pin than a simple sawtooth cut.

The same is true, by the way, with the Modified 3/8 x 10 pin as is for the Radial pin. In fact, the following picture may help with the description of what I mean by "what parts of the pin actually touch wood":

attachment.php

The near-perfect wood-to-metal contact of the Modified 3/8 x 10 pin (and with the Radial pin, not shown in the picture) helps the pin to always seat correctly -- you'll get a much better mating of the joint surfaces than with a plain 3/8 x 10 pin. Not as good as a piloted joint, but it will be the best you can get with a non-piloted big pin.

You can either choose to have your existing 3/8 x 10 pin replaced by a Radial pin (this is a standard job offered by any good cue repairman), or with a piloted joint, or even with a Modified 3/8 x 10. The Modified 3/8 x 10 is really cool, because the "bolt" part (bottom-most diameter of the steel past the threads) of the screw is slightly larger than the "bolt" part of a standard 3/8 x 10, so all that needs to be done to the shaft, is to drill-out the existing hole such that the tops of the existing threads are "flattened" (i.e. take the points or peaks off).

Just some ideas. Again, the performance of your cue is not affected, but the inherent sloppy nature of the 3/8 x 10 pin is causing the aesthetics issue. If it bothers you that much, have your joint replaced with either a piloted joint, or a Radial, or a Modified 3/8 x 10 pin.

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
Click to expand...
Very, very, very few piloted shafts does the little nub sticking out make contact with anything much less provide any alignment. In most cases it is just a bump on the bottom of the shaft doing pretty much nothing.
 
macguy said:
Very, very, very few piloted shafts does the little nub sticking out make contact with anything much less provide any alignment. In most cases it is just a bump on the bottom of the shaft doing pretty much nothing.
Click to expand...

Although that may be the case with some piloted joints, I'm not sure I agree with the "very very very few" part. The cues with piloted joints I do have, including a Schuler, that "nub" does indeed make contact, and you can feel the difference in continuing to screw the cue together once that "nub" makes contact.

In fact, it's accentuated in the Schuler -- once that pilot makes contact, I have to apply more elbow grease to continue to screw the cue together. The pilot fits very tightly, and centers the joint perfectly every time.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Although that may be the case with some piloted joints, I'm not sure I agree with the "very very very few" part. The cues with piloted joints I do have, including a Schuler, that "nub" does indeed make contact, and you can feel the difference in continuing to screw the cue together once that "nub" makes contact.

In fact, it's accentuated in the Schuler -- once that pilot makes contact, I have to apply more elbow grease to continue to screw the cue together. The pilot fits very tightly, and centers the joint perfectly every time.

-Sean
Click to expand...
I don't really want to be argumentative but this is pretty much representative (see picture) of most all the piloted joints you encounter working on cues. Even the ones with wood showing that may stick out a little more rarely contact any part of the steel joint.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/carlscues/DSC04693.jpg
 
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macguy said:
Wait a minute, You say quote

"I received the shaft yesterday, hit a few balls, and I'm lovin' the feel of it. "

That is the bottom line. I have played with shafts that were off different cues, mismatched joint designs and the last thing I really cared about was the way it looked. You go to pro tournaments and you see it all the time shafts that don't match the cue, mix and matched and so on. If I liked a shaft as much as you seem to like this shaft, you could not get it away from me without a fight.
It doesn't sound like you even paid that much money for it and got lucky enough to have a shaft the you really like.
Man' you are already ahead.
Click to expand...
In your opinion...but he said it bothers him
 
Black-Balled said:
In your opinion...but he said it bothers him
Click to expand...

Not just my opinion, probably the opinion of many players who go through the trials and tribulations of trying to find a cue or shaft they really like.

My point was, he should give it a little more thought before sending it back. It follows the saying,

"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know"

He now has a shaft he likes and should think twice about letting it get away from him only to end a shaft he hates. My assumption is, he bought the shaft to play with first and foremost and he said he bought something inexpensive. In my opinion he may have actually gotten pretty lucky considering. He could have sent the cue to a cue maker and spent a few hundred and got a perfectly fitting shaft that he does not like as much as this one. Even if he orders another shaft, he should keep this shaft regardless. Pretty good advice I think..
 
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macguy said:
Not just my opinion, probably the opinion of many players who go through the trials and tribulations of trying to find a cue or shaft they really like.

My point was, he should give it a little more thought before sending it back. It follows the saying,

"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know"

He now has a shaft he likes and should think twice about letting it get away from him only to end a shaft he hates. My assumption is, he bought the shaft to play with first and foremost and he said he bought something inexpensive. In my opinion he may have actually gotten pretty lucky considering. He could have sent the cue to a cue maker and spent a few hundred and got a perfectly fitting shaft that he does not like as much as this one. Even if he orders another shaft, he should keep this shaft regardless. Pretty good advice I think..
Click to expand...

This is very reasonable and sage advice. I agree that the OP should stick with this shaft, since he found one he likes (or just lucky to receive one he likes out of a batch of ones that he possibly wouldn't like).

If the aesthetics really bother him, it's WELL WORTH a trip to a respected cue repairman to have that shaft custom-fitted to the butt. This is obviously joint re-work (may entail a pin replacement / plugging the shaft hole and redrilling it), but not something outside the scope of a cue maker ensuring a shaft fits his cue properly anyway.

-Sean
 
I've got Joss, Schon, Falcon, and R Black shafts that inter-mix great.
I've also had a Gina shaft that fits perfect on my '68 Joss..(18 thread).

I would send it back..either the female part is off-center....
..or the shaft isn't round.

Mottey shafts fit any well made 14 thread joint also.
 
macguy said:
Not just my opinion, probably the opinion of many players who go through the trials and tribulations of trying to find a cue or shaft they really like.

My point was, he should give it a little more thought before sending it back. It follows the saying,

"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know"

He now has a shaft he likes and should think twice about letting it get away from him only to end a shaft he hates. My assumption is, he bought the shaft to play with first and foremost and he said he bought something inexpensive. In my opinion he may have actually gotten pretty lucky considering. He could have sent the cue to a cue maker and spent a few hundred and got a perfectly fitting shaft that he does not like as much as this one. Even if he orders another shaft, he should keep this shaft regardless. Pretty good advice I think..
Click to expand...
I concur!!!
 
B.Carson said:
Not sure what you payed for the shaft but if it were me I would ask them to send me a new one. If you have already used the shaft they may give you some grief but it's worth a shot.
Click to expand...

I paid around $80 for the shaft, which included a Kamui tip. I figure it would have cost me around that much to have a Kamui installed after buying a plain ole' garden variety maple shaft.
I used the shaft a few times, figuring that (like jbmcgee1 stated) once I get into gear, I won't notice, or care, about the offset lip. I'll be honest, it doesn't bother me (much ;)) when I'm shooting.
But it's one of those things that I also ask myself, "I'm the customer, why should I 'settle' for an offset shaft ?".

zpele said:
Question for ya.... When you look at the joint from the top down on the butt end... is the screw in the middle of the joint or slightly off center?

Same for the shaft.... when you look at the hole from the top down is it in the center or slightly off?

If its the butt end that is off you may be out of luck.
Click to expand...

I've screwed the new shaft onto a few different 3/8x10 cues I have, and I've been able to determine that it IS the SHAFT that is drilled/tapped with the offset hole.

brandoncook26 said:
Sounds like they just tapped the hole off center. I bought a Tiger shaft where the thread hole was so bad, it made the cue look like it had a huge roll out, when in fact it was just drilled at an angle.

Send the shaft back and tell them it was tapped crooked. The only way to ensure the shaft mates perfectly is to have someone fit it with the butt. Even if it doesn't match, it should still be uniformly larger or smaller all the way around.
Click to expand...

This was my thinking as well :thumbup:.

Truthfully, I wouldn't have an issue if this were the case. As the disclaimer states ("This shaft may not fit flush with your existing cue"), I also expected any discrepancies to be, as you've stated, 'uniform'.

dkleather said:
I'm struggling to reconcile this:-
I ordered a lower end aftermarket shaft last week
Click to expand...

With this:-
But I'm a bit anal when it comes to cue aesthetics
Click to expand...

In my experience anal people who buy cheap are often disappointed.

It you like and can play with the shaft keep it, its better than a perfectly centred one you don't like the feel of.
Click to expand...

I should clarify that the shaft I've purchased is not one of those "unknown maker, 3/8x10 shaft" for $29 on the bay. It's a lower end, 'high performance' (?) shaft.

I can certainly understand what you're saying here, DK. At the same time, there's a certain 'minimum standard' I would expect from any product.

That being said, I used to have a factory second (with the grooved ring around an inch above the collar) Predator shaft as a backup shaft. I ended up making that my primary shaft, as it just had a better... 'feel' to it. The only reason I sold it was because (short version :D) I had bills to pay (had to sell quite a few of my cues, but that's a story for another time...).

Anyway... that shaft's collar was slightly smaller than the butt end. The seller had the same disclaimer ("This shaft may not fit flush with your existing cue"), so while I knew going in that it may not be flush, I also expected that difference/space/lip to be consistent for the entire circumference of the joint. And in the case of the Predator shaft, the difference WAS consistent.

But as far as the shaft that is the topic of this thread, I'm inclined to believe that the shaft that I've purchased would hit as well as an exchanged shaft (based on the consistency aspect touted in the marketing)...
Versus a garden variety, unknown maker, don't know what you're gonna get, $29 fleabay shaft. If the $29 fleabay shaft were what I'd purchased, I'd likely 'swallow the pill and stick with what I got'.

The bottom line is that, although I was aware of the possiblity of the collars not being flush (and was prepared to accept that), what I expected was that the cavity to accept the pin would be centered, and not offset.
 
Mickey Qualls said:
Hi all, and thanks in advance for any input and advice...

I ordered a lower end aftermarket shaft last week (from a billiard supply company, not a private seller). I received the shaft yesterday, hit a few balls, and I'm lovin' the feel of it.
I'm more than satisfied with the performance of the selection I've made.

But I'm a bit anal when it comes to cue aesthetics. The joint (3/8x10) screws on, no problems. The issue is that when the cue is together, the aftermarket shaft isn't "centered" on the butt.
I've tried the new shaft on other 3/8x10 cues I have, and have been able to determine that it's the new shaft that has the 'off center' issue.

When the shaft is on the butt, on the two extreme sides, one side will be perfectly flush, and the other side will have a 'ledge' on the shaft where the two pieces meet.
The difference is minimal, maybe... half a millimeter. Not enough to notice at table length, but would be easily visible if... say my cue was laying on the table and I was racking. If you came over to tell me something, there's a halfway decent chance you would notice the 'lip' or 'ledge'.

The seller has a return policy in the form of merchandise credit. And I'm sure I could find something that would meet or beat the price paid for the shaft:rolleyes:, if I choose to go that route. So a 'merchant issue' is not my 'beef'.
And if I were sold a complete cue that had this issue, I would expect nothing less than perfectly flush. But this is an aftermarket shaft, and the greater majority of sellers claim (rightfully) that 'this shaft may not fit flush with your existing cue'.

If the 'lip' was the same all the way around the joint, I could 'accept' that. If that were the case, I wouldn't be asking the question here.

My question is, would you return the aftermarket shaft that is slightly off center (for either another shaft or something similar in price)... or 'just learn to live with it', accept that the shaft isn't 'perfectly centered', and enjoy the hit and feel of it ?

I'm interested to hear other opinions...
Click to expand...



If like you say the threaded portion of the shaft is not centered it can be fixed by any compitent cue repairman. All that they would need to do is bore out the hole to larger size and then install a plugg. The plugg can either wood or phenolic, I use phenolic in all the cues I build. Once the plugg is installed a new hole is bored and tapped to the thread use on the pin in your cue.

Is very easy to do and it should not cost a great deal of money.
 
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