Billy_Bob said:
Thank you Billy_Bob!!!
I was really surprised when VAPOOL went off on me like that! I never said only short - normal players "had" to use this technique and that you "had" to be a larger person to execute a good draw shot!!! 
My emphasis was really on using wrist action to make your job simpler, although it's an advanced technique and requires perfect timing. There are myriads of methods to drawing the cue ball and I never intended to infer a "snap-back" stroke was the only way! Jeez!!! In my post I did fail to mention this was for longer distance shots in my case, but then again wrist shots can be used on any shot on the table! Read Mosconi's books, Crane, Lassiter and they all mention (sadly vaguely and without further explanation) using wrist action all the time. Yes, a snap stroke can ad maximum spin to the cue ball on draw and follow, but you can still snap the wrist forward and not impart maximum spin to get a desired result. An example is a short stop shot of 12" - 12.50". You can still lightly snap/break the wrist forward and excecute a perfect stop shot! Try it and see! It works great on long distance stop shots too!!! You can do this soft or firm! Soft is better though!!!
The most frustrating problem I had was - like you - not knowing the mechanics of wrist snap. It's like telling a beginning player to just follow-through or just snap your....! They have no idea what it means unless you break it down and explain it in great detail. I'm really surprised no one has tried to explain wrist snap the same way!!! I wish "they" broke techniques down like the experts do in pro golf!!! Most of the secrets of that game are in the textbook!!!! Maybe Pool instructors do, but I haven't seen an article or a "classic" pool book that does. "Come, Let Us To Billiards Away" does extensively, and Johnny Holiday's book has a good explanation too but they - unfortunately - aren't considered classics.
Some of the best draw shots I saw were by players who use a simple snap of the wrist. Reyes seems to just let his wrist break naturally forward (he even drops his elbow for a full follow through to impart insane action), but from what he told me he uses a damn heavy cue (over 21 ounces). He isn't a big strong guy but he's been swinging a cue since he was 4 or 5 years old!!! His arm strength has developed to point where he can play for days and his arm won't tire much! Try to arm wrestle a guy who's been in an old wheel chair for 40 years and you'll see my point!!! The cue is really a part of Effren. I think he has deceiving arm strength, but utilizies every technique at his disposal including but not limited to wrist snap! He can do it both ways and more!!! His technique is a wrist snap while throwing the cue stick at the ball. His does have a weaker break but that's an entire body and arm timing type of deal.
Large players IMO can have a distinct advantage in they can force draw a cue ball back without problem. I'm not physics major but the potential energy and mass they have in their body/arm size overcomes the weight of the cue and cue ball. Therefore it's easier for them to draw from any distance. Of course they must have good cueing technique. Mike Massey quickly comes to mind!!!
Think about all the baseball greats like Hank Aaron (wrists) and Barry Bonds (brute arm/body strength) and how their technique varies but with the nearly same results.
Lastly, the break shot in 9-ball is like what I've been talking about in regard to size vs. cue tip acceleration. Some prefer a heavy break cue and others prefer a lighter cue. The common demonimator is tip speed. If you are 5' tall using a 22 ounce cue - unless you have natural power or been playing since you were a tot - getting that "club head speed" is going to be pretty tough. A larger guy can stroke a 22 ouncer like it's a tooth pick!
I'm not an expert but I know what's worked for me and as the old saying goes: "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." I've practiced failed, grew frustrated, gave up, read, and then thought and practiced hard again with the draw shot for years and years!!! Now I can draw whitey back quite well with zip and - pretty much - at will!!!
I hope this clears some things up and I don't get murdered again for expressing my opinons!!! Keep practicing and please let me know if I've helped or not. I'd be very interested if the Bull Whip/Terry towel example helped. It really did for me!!! Thanks again! Keep Dabbin' it!!!
Sincerely,
F8it
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F8it said:
i wasn't going off, it was just honestly bad advice, at least the way you explained it.
this is what you said, you basically said that normal players MUST (i repeat MUST) rely on wrist action.........which is as far from true as possible.
the wrist snap is an ENTIRELY different shot, that has its own purpose.
if the only way you get adequate draw is by snapping your wrist, there is something very wrong with your stroke.
i don't intend this to sound mean, or like i'm going off, just merely correcting some bad advice.
i've seen people give (and been victim to) this exact advice, and it will hender your game if you don't learn how to correctly draw without stroking the ball.
thanks
VAP
vapoolplayer said:
Well.. I think you were particularly brutal but it's o.k.. I did overstate the "must" when relying on a snap stroke, but it's far from being "incorrect" technique!!! It's an advanced technique but a valid one nonetheless! All the great players employ it so why not everyone else? How can my advice be all that bad if it's something many professional players execute all the time?!!! Heck, have you ever seen Mosconi shoot a draw shot?!!! He sure as hell snapped his wrist!!!
Also, if you've ever seen power draw shots in almost every case wrist snap is involved. Not in all cases but in a lot of them you do!!! Wrist snap, a long smooth follow through stroke, and a person's (arm) mass all achieves the same result: tip accelerating through the cue ball. You said yourself you can draw the cue ball the length of the table or more. The action on the cue ball is the same but yet you did it differently using your natural power/mass to add that maximum spin. I'm not necessarily talking about brute force here, but the inherent inertia you have to overcome the weight of the cue stick and cue ball and get your tip to run through (figuratively speaking) whitey. You draw back smoothly but you're still accelerating the tip through the cueball! You can obviously do the same thing using only wrist action. There's more than one way to skin a cat!
To answer your inference I have a faulty stroke, no I don't have a problem drawing balls without the wrist, and I don't use it exclusively. It's just a helluva lot easier when I do! Perhaps I did overstate a need to rely on this technique and should've done a better job. That being said I don't think my "advice" was bad. "Snap-back" whatever can and - I think - "must" be mastered. I've always been able to draw but never as much without wrist action. Try getting the cue ball to zip back on a nip draw using a smooth stroke and follow through. Yes, can draw it back but snapping it back works too; maybe even better for others.
Bottom line: It's a valid technique and has many, many proponents. I never could do it or believed in it for longest time, but once I learned how I know it's an advantage to "have" for me!
By the way, how do you define "stroking the ball?" Isn't a wrist shot considered a stroke shot? Not trying to be obnoxious but I'm a little confused what you mean?
Thanks for the reply.
F8it
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B
Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
After 4 Days, and about 4-6 Hour of Practice, after following Tips, Suggestions, and some Encouragement. I see MAJOR Improvement in my Draw SHOT.
Again
Thanks to all who contributed to this THREAD.
Signing Off this Thread
Again
Thanks to all who contributed to this THREAD.
Signing Off this Thread
F8it said:
i never said using a wrist snap is bad advice......BUT they way you worded it was. you said that people who were not "strong" had to rely on snapping the wrist. which is far from true. i have practiced and learned how to use a "snap draw" and i can draw the ball just as well without it, but there are shots that require wrist action, but these don't come up as often as you are suggesting.
you referred to mosconi's book a couple times........lets remember, mosconi's book has some of the worst errors ever put into a book.
you also suggested that mosconi snapped his wrist for drawing..........also remember that mosconi played STRAIGHT POOL......and that he was running into small off angle cuts that required him to draw the ball back as straight as possible for a short distance..........that is what a "snap draw" is perfect at doing.
you also said something about so many pro players using this wrist action to power draw, which is simply not true. you'll find that most top players(minus a few) use the LEAST moving parts possible.(this info doesn't just come from watching, but playing and taking lessons from several pro players)
yes, they do use what is called a "snap draw" but this is not needed to get draw MOST of the time. the "snap draw" is usally used when the object ball has a small angle and you want to draw the ball almost straight back.
bottom line, you must learn how to draw with and without your wrist................but "smaller" players as you put it DO NOT need to rely on wrist action.
my arm is no different than any other pool player, you suggest that it takes mass and muscle(or strength) to accelerate the cue thought the ball...........ok lets look at it this way, the cue is only around 19 ozs.........you have to be a VERY VERY weak person not to be able to propel the cue forward with enough speed not to draw the cue correctly........if you can't its not your "strength" its your stroke.
by "stroking" the ball i meant stroking without snapping.
and as far as being brutal.........no worse than you're going to encounter in your average pool hall..........i don't mean it to sound brutal........but if thats the way it comes across..........
VAP
BiG_JoN said:Get 'em VAP!!!
i always thought you'd look nice wearing a cheerleading outfit
VAP
B
Bruce S. de Lis
Guest
I have finally MASTERED MY DRAW SHOT to the point i can do it 8 out of 10 Tries. Not perfect yet, but working on it. 
stevel0609
New member
Elk Soft Tip
I've used just about all the tips on the market and get really good results with a Elk soft tip.
P.S.
don't tell too many people
Bruce S. de Lis said:
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot?
I've used just about all the tips on the market and get really good results with a Elk soft tip.
P.S.
don't tell too many people