My Draw Shot SUCKS.......Help & Suggestions appreciated.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bruce S. de Lis
  • Start date Start date
Bruce S. de Lis said:
...Shall report back if I see, or do not see any improvement in my DRAW SHOT...
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I got really disgusted with my draw shots about a year ago. So I spent about two months just working on draw shots, experimenting, etc. Then after that I practiced draw shots about once a week.

Now I will usually shoot a few draw shots on unfamiliar tables as part of my warm-up. (In addition to other warm-up shots.)

So I would say take your time, try different things. My goal was to be able to draw back the cue ball a specific distance (like 1 diamond, half a table, whatever) as needed during a tournament. My two months of concentrated experimenting went a long way toward reaching this goal.

I can't *always* draw back the ball where I want it. But I can certainly do this a lot more often than I could before. I practice with a row of balls across the table and the cue ball 1 diamond back, then try to get the cue ball to come back one diamond, then 2 diamonds, then 3, etc. Not easy, but easier after a few months of practice.
 
A lot of posters have recommended following through on draws shots. I do what BillyBob said about shooting the tip toward a spot about 6 inches in front of the cueball.

But, Don McCoy told me that one of his thoughts about his draw shots is to NOT follow through. What gives? Does poking at the ball work as well, but we think it doesn't because we've heard that advice so often?

Another piece of advice I'm not too sure about is the "closed bridge" advice given here and by Byrne and others. On the video BillyBob linked to, the tip goes down right after hitting the cueball. Therefore, the pressure on the bridge is downward, therefore an open bridge would work just as well, perhaps better by allowing better sighting.

Thoughts?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
A lot of posters have recommended following through on draws shots. I do what BillyBob said about shooting the tip toward a spot about 6 inches in front of the cueball.

But, Don McCoy told me that one of his thoughts about his draw shots is to NOT follow through. What gives? Does poking at the ball work as well, but we think it doesn't because we've heard that advice so often?

Another piece of advice I'm not too sure about is the "closed bridge" advice given here and by Byrne and others. On the video BillyBob linked to, the tip goes down right after hitting the cueball. Therefore, the pressure on the bridge is downward, therefore an open bridge would work just as well, perhaps better by allowing better sighting.

Thoughts?

Jeff Livingston
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on the follow through:

it is a fact that follow through should not mattter, once the ball has left the tip, thats it, its gone.

what follow through does is keeps you from jerking during the actual stroke. if you tried to stop your tip exactly when the cue ball left it, you would start slowing your stroke down before it even hit the ball. this causes a jerk. not good. that is why you should follow through, because it is the only way to keep a fluid ACCELERATING stroke.

so yes and no, the follow through does effect the draw, and it doesn't. if that makes sense at all.

as far as the bride is concerned, it can be done either way, and you will see players do it either way.

again, just like the follow through, the closed bridge is used to keep you from doing something wrong during the stroke.

some people have a tendancy to raise up during the stroke, if you do this, then the open bridge will allow you to raise up too high. the closed bridge will help prevent this.

if your stroke is true and straight, the open bridge works excellent and gives you a more unobstructed view.

thanks

VAP
 
chefjeff said:
...But, Don McCoy told me that one of his thoughts about his draw shots is to NOT follow through. What gives? Does poking at the ball work as well, but we think it doesn't because we've heard that advice so often?...
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Well actually there is a shot called a "nip draw shot" where the cue ball is very close to the object ball and you don't want to follow through or it will be a double hit foul. So yes you can draw without a 6 inch follow through. And as you can see from the above video, the tip is not in contact with the cue ball very long with a long follow through.

But by telling players to follow through 6 inches, you can get someone who can't draw to be able to draw.

So far as using an open bridge instead of a closed bridge, I just tried an open bridge and was able to draw back just as far. But I did not feel I was as much in control of the cue ball as when I am using a closed bridge. Maybe just because I am used to using a closed bridge and it felt uncomfortable and it is just in my head? Anyway I feel that I can control the cue ball better when using a closed bridge. Like if I want more accuracy, a closed bridge seems to work better for me???
 
32-n-d said:
When I was trying to tune my stroke...I always reminded myself to "follow through". I stroke through the cb, chalked up and such but it wasn't until I felt how to perform a good, clean stoke that I knew what they were talking about all along.

Let me try to use more specific terms to help you better understand what I'm talking about:

When stroking through the cb, you almost have "accelerate" your cue. You want your tip to stay in contact with the cb until the end of your stroke. You'll find that it's not power that gives you more spin, its all in how much follow through you give it. I've seen people hit the cb with all their might trying to draw, only getting minimal results. Where I can hit it with not even half the power and draw over twice as far.

Just go off of all the great advice this forum has to offer, and get some table time for a little trial and error.

Hope this helps...good luck.
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It's all basic fundamentals. An elbow drop, tightening up on the grip as you strike the ball, and any other moves before the ball is struck. All this prevents you from striking the c/b where intended.

Actually many players don't know just how low you can hit the ball. For that matter, the same goes for top english. They are afraid because of miscues, which goes back to the stroke. It is a snow ball effect and the tip rarely has anything to do with it. Have an instructor tell you what's happening, it would be very easy to see by a trained eye.

Rod
 
Stroke like every other shot. Relaxed. No big deal ..just hitting the cue ball below the center. Hold the cue VERY lightly VERY VERY VERY lightly. Don't grip it at all! Just let your fingers cradle it.

Shoot normally, not hard, just low on the cb.

Keep it simple and relaxed. It's the tension that's killing the cb and makeing you crazy.

You'll be amazed what you can do with a easy stroke and extremely light cradle. If I can do it you sure as hell can because I'm an old fart beginner :) VERYVERYVERYVERY light grip.
 
vapoolplayer said:
on the follow through:

it is a fact that follow through should not mattter, once the ball has left the tip, thats it, its gone.

what follow through does is keeps you from jerking during the actual stroke. if you tried to stop your tip exactly when the cue ball left it, you would start slowing your stroke down before it even hit the ball. this causes a jerk. not good. that is why you should follow through, because it is the only way to keep a fluid ACCELERATING stroke.

so yes and no, the follow through does effect the draw, and it doesn't. if that makes sense at all.

as far as the bride is concerned, it can be done either way, and you will see players do it either way.

again, just like the follow through, the closed bridge is used to keep you from doing something wrong during the stroke.

some people have a tendancy to raise up during the stroke, if you do this, then the open bridge will allow you to raise up too high. the closed bridge will help prevent this.

if your stroke is true and straight, the open bridge works excellent and gives you a more unobstructed view.

thanks

VAP
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Thanks for your reply.

You brought up another "proverb"...accelerate through the ball.

That's another one I have problems with. (I don't mean to pick on you personally, I'm just thinking outloud here) I'd rather NOT accelerate through the ball. And that's why I've positioned my grip so when the tip hits the cueball, my swing arc is just past bottom and therefore my speed is maxed and constant.

If I hit the cueball as my grip arm is going down, then I am probably accelerating; if it's going up, I'm probably decelerating. Which means I'm not able to control the exact speed at contact, something I don't like. If you imagine a bell curve, I want to hit the cueball at the top, mostly flat area for consistency. The swing arc looks kinda like an inversion of the curve, btw.

Sorry for getting off track from the original post, but I was thinking that the draw shot really requires exactness of hit and a few of these ideas being mentioned seem to me to make the problem worse, not better.

Bring back, bring back, bring back my bonnie to me, to me... :)

Jeff Livingston
 
What will cause a cue ball to spin more?

A long follow through where the tip is actually on the ball for a longer period of time?

Or

A short follow through where the spin is applied and the tip is then "out of the way"?
 
Teacherman said:
What will cause a cue ball to spin more?

A long follow through where the tip is actually on the ball for a longer period of time?

Or

A short follow through where the spin is applied and the tip is then "out of the way"?
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I'll take the bait . . . . a short "jab stroke" like billiard players use???
Scott
 
Teacherman said:
What will cause a cue ball to spin more?

A long follow through where the tip is actually on the ball for a longer period of time?

Or

A short follow through where the spin is applied and the tip is then "out of the way"?
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I disagree with your first assumption that the tip stays on the cueball a longer time with follow through than without follow through, so your question is moot. (see BillyBob's link to video.)

Jeff Livingston
 
The point is the tip has to get off the ball.

Not usually a major worry. But, a stroke with a long follow through has to have some speed to it so the ball leaves the stick. I've seen long follow through strokes that are too slow and actually impede spin. The tip is on the ball too long. In other words, they are propelling the cue ball instead of causing it to spin.

So, I believe there is a speed and length of stroke relationship to get the amount of draw needed.

Just saying a long follow through won't necessarily get the right results

Just saying a short nip type follow through won't necessarily get the right result.
 
I had a big compliment this past Saturday night. I was playing a ring game with a couple other old timers. I was playing pretty good (up a little). Then I played a long draw shot. Object (7-ball) ball in the kitchen about 1/4 inch off the side rail. About 1 and 1/2 diamonds away from the corner. Cue ball on the other end of the table about 1 inch off the same rail and about 1 and 1/2 diamonds away from the opposite corner. 9-ball on the bottom rail. Made the 7 and drew back to the 2nd diamond for the semi easy cut on the 9 to the corner. When I walked over to get my break stick Bob said, "You have the best controlled long draw shot I've ever seen". Since I know Bob has been around pool for a long time. This was the best compliment I've ever had.

Anyway Bruce, there is my qualifying statement and I'm going to throw in a little here just in case this is the kind of shot your talking about. (Rather than cue ball 1 foot from the object ball and needing to draw back 6 inches.)

All the information I've seen here is great so I'll try not to repeat what others have said.

The above shot can be rattled and missed, and is rattle and missed rather regularly by a lot of players. It is because they hit it quite a bit harder than necessary thinking they need to, to get the draw they want. They use like a 'soft break' speed. I've seen it tried almost using 'hard break speed'. So how hard do you hit it? I'm going to call it 'break stroking speed'. You see players taking practice strokes when getting ready to break. Even when they are using a 'soft break', the actual hitting stoke is much harder than there practice stokes. Hope you can understand this. Has been difficult to write and describe. It is this 'break stroking speed' that should not be exceeded. On the above shot I was firm but not as hard as the 'break stroking speed' I'm talking about. Using this break stoking speed I can sit a ball deep in the corner pocket at the foot of the table, cue ball in the kitchen and draw back the length of the table. That would be the rare occasion when you need that much draw on a long shot, so generally I use much less speed than this. It is firm, but NOT hard.

What I'm trying to emphasize here is you just don't have to hit it as hard as you probably think you do, if you use the other good advice in the thread.

Secondly, I think generally players have the tip to low on long draw shots. When your hitting this hard, if you put the tip to low, your taking a chance on sending the cue ball airborne. So just incase your stoke isn't what you were hoping for....I use at most a half tip low, but try to stay at a quarter tip low. This allows you to get that controlled draw that just creeps back at you. Almost looks like you had hit a soft follow shot from the other direction. And it can creep a good distance. Just get it going and it can go a while on 860.

I said I'd try not to repeat what others have said, but I think I'll throw in my two key thoughts on this kind of shot. Since I can only think of one thing at a time, the two keys have to be at separate times. One in setup and one while hitting. In my setup I make absolutely sure that when my tip is close to the cue ball, my back arm forearm is straight up and down. In the hitting stroke I make sure to follow through completely.
 
Tis almost 0730, and I have an optimists Appointment at 0800. Now I have more information to DEAL WITH. Hopefully i will be on a Table by 1000 to try out all these TIPS. Thanks again.... ;)
 
Billy_Bob said:
Yes it is amazing how softly you can hit the ball and get quite a lot of draw. I don't know why this is? Maybe banging the heck out of the ball is doing something to mess up the draw?

Anyone know? Maybe the tip is not in contact with the ball as long or something? (Just guessing...)
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Depending on the distance of the shot, too much speed won't allow the backspin to take. The cueball stuns and won't draw much after contact. Happens mostly on slow cloth.
 
The draw shot

Go to the tracks (as you say) and practice. Set up an easy draw shot with plenty of room and try this experiment: Keep your cue level (this will require you to lower the height of your bridge) and follow-thru. Now I mean follow-thru, not bang, not chip, not hesitate, not limp. A level cue will not require you to overcome additional friction from driving the cueball into the cloth. Think of it as sliding the ball (which is exactly what it is). If this doesn't work then you will have to go back a little farther and examine your fundamentals. You must be still and watch (see) the interplay of the shot. If you are watching the cue contact the cueball and the cueball contact the object ball, you should be able to diagnose the problem yourself immediately. If you cannot see the interplay then this is the problem point, the lack of draw is only a symptom. You are likely killing your aimed cue to cueball placement by inadvertantly striking the cueball in the wrong place. This is likely due to the location of your backhand at contact. All you have to do is accellerate the bottom of the cueball more than the the top. If you hit the ball on the bottom half this will be accomplished...every time.
 
The video of the cue tip hitting the cue ball was very interesting.....Can anyone post a link to a video that shows the player's grip hand while shooting power draw shots? I think that could be very informative as well.
 
Roman was not built in One DAY, neither is my DRAW SHOT, but I have seen some IMPROVEMENTS following todays Practice..... Again thanks too all for their Tips, Help, and Experiences.... ;) :p ;) :p
 
Bruce S. de Lis said:

Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:
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If I had to guess without seeing you shoot I would say you are probably right--you are aiming low on the cue ball but when you actually stroke the shot you're dropping in the back and the tip is coming up and not hitting as low.

My advice would be to make sure your grip arm and hand are very loose, make sure you stay down on the shot, and strive to stroke through the cue ball as smoothly as you can with a complete follow through. The stroke is all in the cue and the follow through--not any other part of your body which should be perfectly still and relaxed. If you keep practicing these things over and over your draw shot should improve very quickly.
 
Bruce S. de Lis said:

Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot? :confused:
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You should learn how to draw straight back more than 2-1/2 diamonds that would help you alot!!! LOL!! :D

But serious Practice the shot over and over and over until you can do it 10 times in a row! Then switch to another shot practice that and then go back to the draw shot to make sure you have it if not keep practicing! Also make sure you hit the ball low! :D
 
The key to effective draw is wrist snap and acceleration! You must learn to "snap" your wrist/cue tip through the lower half of the cue ball at increasing speed and at the right moment. All that stuff about follow through is kind of a misnomer when it comes to specific stroke or power shots. You can follow through whitey all night long and still not get adequate draw! I'm sure you can relate! Therefore wrist snap, acceleration, and timing is the secret.

Unless you are naturally big, strong, or have arms with enough mass to muscle-draw the cue ball, small - normal players must rely on wrist action. I've long had difficulty with draw and the mechanics of wrist snap. While the words seem self explanatory, no one properly defined the term until I read Johnny Holiday's book: The Encyclopedia of Pocket Billiards. From it I got a short definition of draw and the mechanics of the stroke. He calls it a "snap-back" stroke. What I understand from his explanation is as your wrist snaps forward into the base of the cue ball, you should quickly pull back or yank your hand back at the wrist. This gets you to stab quickly into and through the cue ball imparting a huge amount back spin (if desired). You'd think doing this would hinder the action of the stroke, but it forces you to ad extra speed into the ball much like a firing engine piston.

The Monk also used the words "snap-back" stroke - verbatim - in his popular book: Point The Way. In fact, he used many of Johnny Holiday's ideas and published them in Point The Way!!! I'm not bashing The Monk, but I didn't see a writing credit or bibliography with Johnny Holiday's name on it!!! What's up with that?!!! :mad:

I was still a little confused after reading Johnny's section on draw (what the heck is a snap-back stroke?!!!). However, after practicing what I read - at the pool hall - for 20 - 30 minutes I finally got it!!!

To describe more of the mechanics... visualize holding an 18" Bull Whip (I know there isn't such a thing!) in your hand like the butt of your cue. Now imagine "cracking" the Whip using only your wrist and you should get an idea of what wrist action truly is.

A much better more functional and fun example is to playfully snap a small wet terry towel at your girlfriend's/boyfriend's behind at the beach, etc., and you will get instant physical feedback!!! :p You'll get slapped by your mate but you will also grasp the concept and mechanics behind (pun intended) a good proper wrist snap, IMO!!! Lol!!! Oh, and I won't be responsible if you snap anybody with a whip, towel, etc.l!!! Just do it at the air underhanded and you'll be fine.

You can still get adequate action without this "back" part of the snap stroke. I think the idea of "back" serves as both a mental and physical cue and aids you getting extra wrist action into that cue ball. For the first time in over a decade I finally know what a wrist snap is!!! Now when I shoot 5'+ draw shots the cue ball contacts the object ball, pauses for a split second (fairly new simonis 860, red circle cue ball) and zips back with amazing speed!!! I've never intentionally been able to do that, ever!!! The action is incredible and I get the same results on worn, dirtly, old cloth! Of course, since timing is also essential you have to be pretty warmed up to do it right. At least in the beginning. No, I don't use a predator shaft either! That'd be akin to cheating!!! :D

The next thing you have to practice is speed control so you don't run over run your mark! The cue ball really likes to run back quickly with this type of stroke, and you have to gauge the exact amount of wrist action to use.

Sorry for the long winded reply!! It's the best I could do! Hope this helped! "Stick" with it and I'm sure you will get the hang of it eventually. It took me over 10 years!!! :( Remember to practice hard, but keep things in perspective and have fun!!! Few of us can draw like Mike Massey, even with proper technique!!!!

Sincerely,

F8it
 
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