F8it said:
holy shit...........this has to be the WORST advice i've ever seen..........
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
yes, there is shot called a "snap draw" but this is NOT NOT NOT NOT the ONLY way to draw the cue ball.
VAP
holy shit...........this has to be the WORST advice i've ever seen..........
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
yes, there is shot called a "snap draw" but this is NOT NOT NOT NOT the ONLY way to draw the cue ball.
VAP
just to go into further detail...........
you can draw the ball by:
stroking directly through the ball..............NO, it does NOT matter how big you are at all. I'm 6ft 170, and i can draw the ball a table length or more(depending on the equipment) without snaping my wrist.
snapping the wrist: this is what is known as a "snap draw". this is used when the object ball is at a slight angle and you wish to draw the ball almost straight back. the snap gives a little extra "umph" to the ball and make is take a more direct path backwards, it still tries to follow the tangent line, but not as much.
stroke-slip method...........also known as "spearing" the cue. its a less well known and less used method. it is also considered and advanced technique, much harder to control. as you are stroking, you actually let go of the cue for a spit second. this lets you build up more acceleration before contact.
example, your had is in the middle of the wrap, after the stroke, your hand is at the back of the wrap or on the butt of the cue.
stroke-slip&snap method: the last two combined, although i've never seen any reason to use this method, as the above mentioned 3 work fine.
then you can go into things like a "nip draw" which is more of a poke shot, but has its purposes.
i will repeat:
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A STRONG PERSON TO GET GOOD DRAW WITHOUT SNAPPING THE WRIST.
thanks
VAP
you can draw the ball by:
stroking directly through the ball..............NO, it does NOT matter how big you are at all. I'm 6ft 170, and i can draw the ball a table length or more(depending on the equipment) without snaping my wrist.
snapping the wrist: this is what is known as a "snap draw". this is used when the object ball is at a slight angle and you wish to draw the ball almost straight back. the snap gives a little extra "umph" to the ball and make is take a more direct path backwards, it still tries to follow the tangent line, but not as much.
stroke-slip method...........also known as "spearing" the cue. its a less well known and less used method. it is also considered and advanced technique, much harder to control. as you are stroking, you actually let go of the cue for a spit second. this lets you build up more acceleration before contact.
example, your had is in the middle of the wrap, after the stroke, your hand is at the back of the wrap or on the butt of the cue.
stroke-slip&snap method: the last two combined, although i've never seen any reason to use this method, as the above mentioned 3 work fine.
then you can go into things like a "nip draw" which is more of a poke shot, but has its purposes.
i will repeat:
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A STRONG PERSON TO GET GOOD DRAW WITHOUT SNAPPING THE WRIST.
thanks
VAP
You both are overstating the situation.vapoolplayer said:
The wrist snap will generate maximum draw. Key word, maximum.
NOTE: maximum draw is rarely required.
So, you are right to refer to other forms of draw.
This part actually proves the point. One of the major reasons that the "snap draw" gets that little extra "umph" and takes a more direct path back, is because it generates more spin. Thus, if you can deliver a cue ball with more backspin, and less force at impact with object ball, then you will get draw in a tighter angle, resulting in a more direct path backwards.vapoolplayer said:
This "snap draw" method is definitely a more advanced technique, which is more difficult for many to master, especially since it has more moving parts (wrist action) and relies on more precise timing. But, putting it all together successfully will produce an amazing feel & control.
Letting go of the cue will never build up more acceleration... But, what you may be referring to is that letting go of the cue will eliminate the chances of your arm and muscles slowing down the cue as your arm prepares to come to a stop at the end of your stroke. This motion causes many players to unknowingly produce a decceleration effect in their stroke.vapoolplayer said:
This would be the most common form of deceleration that would prevent a player from getting effective draw (especially while learning).
Agreed... the "nip draw" definitely has its purpose...vapoolplayer said:
vapoolplayer said:
The ultimate point is that there are a few methods that can be used to generate draw. As you've pointed out, each method can be quite different, and some can even utilize opposite techniques. For example, the power draw method relies on a power stroke with follow through. While the nip draw, relies on a softer nip, and virtually no follow through. Yet, each will give draw, and each has its advantages in certain situations.
Thus, some of the arguments in this thread about which techniques work for generating draw are due to people using different types of draw shots.
The main thing to know about draw is that it is all about generating backspin in a manner that overcomes the normal friction of the felt.
Hitting the cue ball hard with the power stroke can generate draw even with a half a tip below center english or more. The power stroke will send the cue ball further down the tangent line before the spin will be able to take effect.
In order to generate draw with a softer stroke will require hitting the cue ball further below center (i.e. 1 and 1/2 tips or even more).
Here is another, lesser known way to generate draw or follow. In this method, you'd do the opposite - start with the tip above the center of the cue ball in order to generate draw. In order to achieve draw, you'd have to move your tip downward during the point of contact. The thing that is most noteworthy about this method is that you can also generate follow by having your cue tip start below center on the cue ball and move upwards during the point of contact.
This movement during contact, is one subtle reason why some people struggle when trying to learn draw. They make every effort to start with the cue tip below center, but since hitting so low is foreign and awkward to them, they inadvertently move the cue tip slightly upwards during contact - this is especially true as they try to avoid contacting the felt due to fear of ripping it. This serves to reduce or eliminate the draw that they should've otherwise encountered by hitting below center of the cue ball.
FLICKit said:
the reason i overstated so much is that he said that the "only" way for a small person to draw was to use a snap which is wrong.
there are many different ways as we both have stated............the hard part is learning them all, and knowing when to apply them, as only knowing how to shoot a shot one way is a very quick way to go broke.
VAP
I've heard there's a player who plays force follow by playing bottom on the CB. Filipinos even have a name for the shot. Personally, I won't believe it til I see it. I've seen plenty of players who address the CB at bottom dead center, then use backhand english to apply spin at contact (Bustamante, for example). It can look like they're getting all those different rotations by hitting the bottom of the CB, but closer inspection reveals they're hitting the usual points on the CB to generate spin. I know a drag draw shot is an example of a follow shot played on the bottom of the CB, but that just uses the cloth's friction to slow the rotational velocity down to a point where natural forward roll takes over (and it's usually a softly played shot). Force follow is a different beast altogether. I just can't see being able to generate that much spin by trying to apply an upward component to the stroke. It seems (to me) like a lot of energy would be wasted just in the effort to have the tip rise at contact.FLICKit said:
BTW, ignore this post if you're talking about a jacked up draw shot or a trick shot where the CB is placed on a chalk cube on the rail and hit from below by a kneeling shooter.
-djb
Bruce S. de Lis said:
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot?
It's a pretty easy two step process.
1. Learn to hit where your aiming on the cueball.
2. Aim at the bottom of the cueball...lol.
DoomCue said:
i don't know about force follow when hitting low on the cue, but i personally do raise the cue up on certain shots to ensure i get plenty of forward motion. i dunno how it works, but it does.
kinda like hal's stuff, i dunno why it works, i just know it does and i use it.
could you provide a link to something talking about the shot you are talking about? i'd like to explore it further.
thanks
VAP
telkwa said:
I did "figure" it on another post here on this thread. I've had the same experience.
And since someone brought up follow, I use a closed bridge on some follow shots (the force on the cue is up) so I can better control the cue's movement through the cueball.
Great minds think alike...and so do we.
Jeff Livingston
drivermaker
Banned
DoomCue said:
Yep...it's a great way to get a lot of draw with or without a lot of effort. You actually need to have your tip ON the table raking across the cloth on your practice backstrokes and then hit up on it in the actual stroke and the CB will zing back with ease. I've never analyzed whether the elbow is dropping or any of that other stuff or what happens but you're striking the CB very low, obviously, you just have to practice it to where you don't miscue but it definitely works. Try it and give some practice to it, you'll be surprised.
drivermaker said:
Interesting.
I've seen posted here and Scott Lee told me this, too, that everytime I miscue on a draw shot that I'm hitting the cloth first.
Tain't so, McGee. I was NEVER hitting the cloth first and yet I miscueing. And examination of my tip proved it.
But that's the past...
Jeff Livingston
drivermaker
Banned
chefjeff said:
And if anyone is misinterpreting by thinking that the tip touches the cloth at impact or post impact on this shot, t'ain't so McGee again. You have your tip on the cloth when setting up to the shot to ENSURE that you're going to strike the CB in about the lowest spot possible, but as stated by DC, you're altering you're stroke and angle of attack from that starting point just as the Phillipinos do when they strike the CB all over and at any part of the face.
I have a pretty good draw stroke and I can tell you that you have to hit the cb low and follow through but that's not all there is to drawing the cb. When I draw the ball, there's a feeling I get that I can't describe to you that takes over and when that feeling is there, I can draw that ball like it's on a string. The only way for you to get that feeling is to practice, play, and practice and play some more. I've been playing seriously for 21 years and I didn't get that feeling overnight.
F8it said:
Thanks for that detailed explanation. I have experimented with wrist snap and know I can get more draw when doing so, but all I heard in the past about this was "snap your wrist".
So I don't really know how to do this. Now that I have more information about this technique, maybe I'll be able to do it properly and more consistently.
Every once and a while I hear a little "gem" about pool playing. This is one of them! Thanks again.
Actually, I'm not talking about backhand english. Supposedly, there's a player who contacts the bottom of the cue ball to play follow (partially described in a post by FLIckit). BHE is a fairly well-known technique, one which I suspect is being used by the player who supposedly hits bottom and gets top. I've heard from a few sources, though, that they're sure he's hitting the bottom of the cue ball, but brushing up at contact to result in forward spin. Like I said, I won't believe it til I see it.drivermaker said:
-djb
drivermaker
Banned
DoomCue said:
OK...gotcha...he must have some pretty nice dings in his cue from hitting the rail then. Or, "the hand is quicker than the eye" and he's misdirecting attention like a magician as he squeezes his hand together quickly to raise his bridge height right in the middle of his stroke.
DoomCue said:
"Supposedly, there's a player" ??? I never referenced any specific player in the previous post with regards to any of the methods used to generate draw.
Just simply stated that backspin can also be generated by moving the tip downwards while contacting the cue ball (or vice versa for top spin). This can be done with a level cue, and no special tricks. It's actually much simpler than it may sound.
People put spins on the cue ball at the point of contact, all the time. Many cases it's unintentional and unknowingly.
Note: don't mis-interpret the earlier message to mean massive draw. Doing that downward movement alone, you'd probably be hard pressed to even get the ball to move 1 diamond.
The idea was just consistent with the main point, which was that draw is all about generating backspin.
Moving the tip downward while contacting the cue ball can definitely be utilized to generate backspin (no matter how small or large). The cue tip does have a frictional component with the cue ball, which can be utilized to generate a level of spin.
If you really want to see it, just try it. Keep it simple at first. Have the object ball within 6 inches of the cue ball. Start with a level cue and address the cue at the center, then move downwards during contact. Don't be surprised if you miscue the first few times you try it. Don't give up right away. Eventually you'll get the feel for it.
After you learn the feel, then you can experiment and increase the difficulty to test your limits.
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't referencing you when I said I heard about a player who hits force follow by hitting the bottom of the CB. That's something I've heard from several Filipino players. Your post mentioning a technique similar to that particular player's just sparked my recollection.FLICKit said:
-djb
Bruce S. de Lis said:
Been having problems Drawing STRAIGHT BACK more than 2-1/2 Diamonds. Think my problem is I am Dropping or Moving my Cue Butt Downward, thus not hitting the Cue Ball Low Enough. Any serious suggestion for improving my Draw Shot?
Practice on straight in shots, putting the cueball only about 12" from the object ball. Hit two tips low and very smoothly, keeping your shoulders and head perfectly still throughout the stroke, right on through the cueball. Suddenly your problems will be over.