My rant: Finals shouldn't be played at 1AM on a multi-day event

Tin Man

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Finals at 1AM is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the spectators. The promoters/tournament directors are 100% responsible and it should not be socially accepted by the pool community.

Filler won the Big Foot, took top 10 in both the Banks and the One Pocket. He had played between 35-40 matches of pool over the week, with an increased pace towards the end of the week. Round 6 started at 9AM on Saturday and I believe he played at 9AM (He was a 'tbd' and they said all tbd's played at 9AM). I'm not sure exactly but he had to play somewhere between 7-9 matches, again, starting at 9AM. After playing his heart out all day, every day, all week, match after match, he makes the finals of a major event. The culmination of a titanic effort and performance, he won a right to play for the title! And they are going to kick off the match at when? 12:30AM?!?!?!? This was the first time I've ever seen Josh look tired at the table. Normally his secret weapon is a high energy level, bouncing around the table and leaping over adversity like Tigger. The Josh I saw had zero gas in the tank. (EDIT: I just learned he shot a .778 TPA in the finals. This from a guy that was posting 900+s on a 10' all week!!!)

As for spectators it is almost as bad. I was fortunate that my friend and I had front row seats. Almost SJM quality. We wanted to see the finals, but it was so late, and we were so tired it wasn't nearly as fun. We almost left, but we kept talking each other into staying. It felt like a couple of kids having a slumber party and trying to stay up all night watching the Star Wars trilogy. The only reason we decided to stay is we figured Filler/Sanchez-Ruiz would make for a fast match. If Roland had won we'd have had to leave.

I've played in many finals of local tournaments that started after midnight and felt the same way. The number of spectators for a smaller event drops from 25-30 down to 2-3 at most. The players play worse. It is a total joke. My last Midwest 9 ball tour event I made the finals of the one pocket. It was my best finish ever. I really wanted to win the thing. We had been playing one pocket and 9 ball until 4:45AM (night one), 4AM (night two), and returning back by 10 or 11AM to play. On day three I was so tired I could hardly keep my focus. I was playing 9 ball matches on Saturday night at 10PM, they called another at midnight. I was down 3-0 but I knew if I just could finish that one match I could be done, so I dug deep and came back and won. It was 1AM on day three. I was so relieved.

Then they told me I had to play my one pocket match. Right now. At 1AM. They said the 9 ball would go all the next day back to back and we'd have no time, so we'd have to play it now. Do you know what it's like to contemplate having to DOUBLE DIP a guy playing one pocket sets at 1AM when you are totally sleep deprived? I played terrible and felt helpless and hopeless. I worked hard for my shot at the title and feel I never got my shot.

I've also seen many tournaments get so far behind that the final 4 players just do an equity chop and go home. Unbelievable.

And we as a pool community seem to accept this. Isn't there a point at which we draw the line? I mean, if the finals were at 7AM after having played for 22 hours, would we still just shrug and say 'Well, sometimes that happens, lot's of players, the TDs are doing their best...' Where do we as a pool community draw the line? We don't. We've become complacent.

It's almost as if the players are considered the shock absorbers to any scheduling mishaps from the tournament directors. Like 'We'll try to set up for a 10PM finals on Saturday, we'll shoot to have round six done by Friday night before midnight, but hey, if we get behind we can always call 11PM and 9AM matches and make the winners play 15 hours on finals day...' PLAYERS ARE NOT SHOCK ABSORBERS. You can't sabotage the experience and performance of the players who support the event because you can't run a tournament correctly.

People talk about growing pool all the time. This doesn't help folks. I have had so many students tell me they don't play many tournaments and the #1 reason is they either don't have the stamina or don't have the time because of how late they run.

This is one thing Matchroom does really well. You don't see a Mosconi Cup or US Open finals at 1AM. Bravo! The same for Mike Zuglan at Turning Stone. Again, Bravo! It's not impossible folks to run a tournament. It can be done. You simply have to make it a priority. You have to leave room for reality, for slow matches, for delays. You can't fill the bathtub to the top and then climb in or you'll have water on the floor. This is stuff we should be able to figure out at age 2.

Why is this happening? Are TD's totally incompetent? Are they getting paid off by the venue if they can trap the players and audience there another 4 hours?

And why are we allowing this? Are we just numb to it? We don't have alternatives? We are desperate to play? We don't know how to stop it? Or is the group of pill popping drinkers that want to party all night greater or louder than the rest of us?

I don't know y'all. I've seen enough. I don't play a lot of events anymore for this reason. Derby is different, I have zero chance to play in the finals so it doesn't impact me directly (except as a spectator which doesn't hurt the same). So I can still play Derby, Turning Stone, the US Open, etc. But I know which ones don't treat the players right and I have a firm boundary against those. Life is too short and hard enough, I don't need any CIA sleep deprivation interrogation tactics to play for a few hundred dollars.

You all can agree or disagree, you can run your tournaments as late as you want. I'll keep filtering the ones I participate in and I'll be ok. I just thought it was totally violating to Filler, I think it's unacceptable, and I hold our pool community responsible for accepting it and not making a big enough fuss to hold the TDs and promoters accountable.

By the way - I love the Derby, the people there worked SUPER HARD and individually they all deserve medals. I think most players had a great experience, it was only the last few matches that were impacted. Unfortunately those are the most important.
 
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Yep, seen this for many years now even in little old Australia.
It is 100% the TD fault.
It is not hard to make a schedule based on 7min per rack, for non professional level and ensure the table count vs players taking part works out.
In our case, the events are under time pressure to hand back the tables to paying customers asap so it has to run well or the room owner won't allow future events.

Still, plenty of other events run by muppets here who can't get this done right.
Zero fun for anyone playing at 1am after a full day slog..
 
Finals at 1AM is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the spectators. The promoters/tournament directors are 100% responsible and it should not be socially accepted by the pool community.

Filler won the Big Foot, took top 10 in both the Banks and the One Pocket. He had played between 35-40 matches of pool over the week, with an increased pace towards the end of the week. Round 6 started at 9AM on Saturday and I believe he played at 9AM (He was a 'tbd' and they said all tbd's played at 9AM). I'm not sure exactly but he had to play somewhere between 7-9 matches, again, starting at 9AM. After playing his heart out all day, every day, all week, match after match, he makes the finals of a major event. The culmination of a titanic effort and performance, he won a right to play for the title! And they are going to kick off the match at when? 12:30AM?!?!?!? This was the first time I've ever seen Josh look tired at the table. Normally his secret weapon is a high energy level, bouncing around the table and leaping over adversity like Tigger. The Josh I saw had zero gas in the tank. (EDIT: I just learned he shot a .778 TPA in the finals. This from a guy that was posting 900+s on a 10' all week!!!)

As for spectators it is almost as bad. I was fortunate that my friend and I had front row seats. Almost SJM quality. We wanted to see the finals, but it was so late, and we were so tired it wasn't nearly as fun. We almost left, but we kept talking each other into staying. It felt like a couple of kids having a slumber party and trying to stay up all night watching the Star Wars trilogy. The only reason we decided to stay is we figured Filler/Sanchez-Ruiz would make for a fast match. If Roland had won we'd have had to leave.

I've played in many finals of local tournaments that started after midnight and felt the same way. The number of spectators for a smaller event drops from 25-30 down to 2-3 at most. The players play worse. It is a total joke. My last Midwest 9 ball tour event I made the finals of the one pocket. It was my best finish ever. I really wanted to win the thing. We had been playing one pocket and 9 ball until 4:45AM (night one), 4AM (night two), and returning back by 10 or 11AM to play. On day three I was so tired I could hardly keep my focus. I was playing 9 ball matches on Saturday night at 10PM, they called another at midnight. I was down 3-0 but I knew if I just could finish that one match I could be done, so I dug deep and came back and won. It was 1AM on day three. I was so relieved.

Then they told me I had to play my one pocket match. Right now. At 1AM. They said the 9 ball would go all the next day back to back and we'd have no time, so we'd have to play it now. Do you know what it's like to contemplate having to DOUBLE DIP a guy playing one pocket sets at 1AM when you are totally sleep deprived? I played terrible and felt helpless and hopeless. I worked hard for my shot at the title and feel I never got my shot.

I've also seen many tournaments get so far behind that the final 4 players just do an equity chop and go home. Unbelievable.

And we as a pool community seem to accept this. Isn't there a point at which we draw the line? I mean, if the finals were at 7AM after having played for 22 hours, would we still just shrug and say 'Well, sometimes that happens, lot's of players, the TDs are doing their best...' Where do we as a pool community draw the line? We don't. We've become complacent.

It's almost as if the players are considered the shock absorbers to any scheduling mishaps from the tournament directors. Like 'We'll try to set up for a 10PM finals on Saturday, we'll shoot to have round six done by Friday night before midnight, but hey, if we get behind we can always call 11PM and 9AM matches and make the winners play 15 hours on finals day...' PLAYERS ARE NOT SHOCK ABSORBERS. You can't sabotage the experience and performance of the players who support the event because you can't run a tournament correctly.

People talk about growing pool all the time. This doesn't help folks. I have had so many students tell me they don't play many tournaments and the #1 reason is they either don't have the stamina or don't have the time because of how late they run.

This is one thing Matchroom does really well. You don't see a Mosconi Cup or US Open finals at 1AM. Bravo! The same for Mike Zuglan at Turning Stone. Again, Bravo! It's not impossible folks to run a tournament. It can be done. You simply have to make it a priority. You have to leave room for reality, for slow matches, for delays. You can't fill the bathtub to the top and then climb in or you'll have water on the floor. This is stuff we should be able to figure out at age 2.

Why is this happening? Are TD's totally incompetent? Are they getting paid off by the venue if they can trap the players and audience there another 4 hours?

And why are we allowing this? Are we just numb to it? We don't have alternatives? We are desperate to play? We don't know how to stop it? Or is the group of pill popping drinkers that want to party all night greater or louder than the rest of us?

I don't know y'all. I've seen enough. I don't play a lot of events anymore for this reason. Derby is different, I have zero chance to play in the finals so it doesn't impact me directly (except as a spectator which doesn't hurt the same). So I can still play Derby, Turning Stone, the US Open, etc. But I know which ones don't treat the players right and I have a firm boundary against those. Life is too short and hard enough, I don't need any CIA sleep deprivation interrogation tactics to play for a few hundred dollars.

You all can agree or disagree, you can run your tournaments as late as you want. I'll keep filtering the ones I participate in and I'll be ok. I just thought it was totally violating to Filler, I think it's unacceptable, and I hold our pool community responsible for accepting it and not making a big enough fuss to hold the TDs and promoters accountable.

By the way - I love the Derby, the people there worked SUPER HARD and individually they all deserve medals. I think most players had a great experience, it was only the last few matches that were impacted. Unfortunately those are the most important.
Send this to Diamond. I agree with a lot of it. They need to hear/read the views of the fans. info@diamondbilliards.com
 
All major/professional tournaments should utilize shot clocks. All tournaments matches should have a maximum amount of time to be played. (Behind you say and need more time to catch up? Should have played faster when it was your time at the table.)

This stuff is fixable. I guess nobody has the balls to just do it.

One thing that changed over the years is the usage of the alternating break. They wanted closer matches. They want the spectators to be treated to hill-hill matches. Well guess what folks? Hill-hill matches take longer to play as there are simply more games played.

Ever watch a match that uses winner break and a shot clock and the victor beats his opponent 9-2? Those type of matches usually run about 45 minutes.

So shot clocks, winner breaks, matches that are no longer than 9 games to win (except for the finals should be 11 games) and have a time limit on them would certainly help the tournament move at a better pace.

At least, in my opinion.

Maniac
 
At least it's their only job.
Amateur pool tournaments starting at 9am and finishing at 6am. Or the play until 3 or 4 am then, back up at 9am makes you rethink ever playing again.
Regardless of the reason, I hate it.
The sole reason I don't play tournaments.
 
All major/professional tournaments should utilize shot clocks. All tournaments matches should have a maximum amount of time to be played. (Behind you say and need more time to catch up? Should have played faster when it was your time at the table.)

This stuff is fixable. I guess nobody has the balls to just do it.

One thing that changed over the years is the usage of the alternating break. They wanted closer matches. They want the spectators to be treated to hill-hill matches. Well guess what folks? Hill-hill matches take longer to play as there are simply more games played.

Ever watch a match that uses winner break and a shot clock and the victor beats his opponent 9-2? Those type of matches usually run about 45 minutes.

So shot clocks, winner breaks, matches that are no longer than 9 games to win (except for the finals should be 11 games) and have a time limit on them would certainly help the tournament move at a better pace.

At least, in my opinion.

Maniac
Fair points Maniac.

One bit challenge at the Derby City Classic is the field strength. Top players miss less and play faster. They also deal with the pressure better. Amateurs taking their first shot tend to play more defensively, slowly, and make more errors. The matches take longer on average. ESPECIALLY true of the banks and one pocket.

There are many ways to fix this. You suggested some good ones. But they aren't the only options. You could also simply allot the correct amount of time for each match (not an optimistic version, but a real one), or limit the field, or do any other number of things to prevent this.

What it starts with is the commitment to prioritize running a well executed schedule. You can't allow that to sink below desire for record entries or short term profits. Once you prioritize a cleanly run tournament there are many ways to skin that cat. It just seems we've accepted this isn't a priority.
 
The sole reason I don't play tournaments.
Yes, and this is very, very sad. I've heard this so much I believe there is a market in every town for pool tournaments that are done before 10PM.

It really chaps me when they start super slow. Like they announce "Sign up at 11AM, Calcutta at noon, play starts immediately after". Then at noon they are still taking last minute sign ups, at 12:30 you hear "We're going to get the Calcutta going in just a minute folks, grab your player sheets", it finishes at 1:40, and play starts darn close to 2pm. Meanwhile the finals are at 2:45AM. Seriously?!? How do we start play close to 2PM and run into the wee hours of the morning? I'm a night owl myself and think this is absurd.
 
... It is 100% the TD fault. ...
In the case of Derby City, it's not on the TD. It is 100% on the promoter, Greg Sullivan. He chooses how many to let enter and the format. The particular buy-back format they use causes complete uncertainty about scheduling and results in tables sitting open in the middle rounds with players just standing around when they could be playing. There is another buy-back format that would keep the tables busy and allow clear scheduling.

Greg does not care about the problems. Or at least, he is not willing to fix them.

If you want change, speak directly to Greg.
 
I’ve always felt that the root problem with the DDC is the player to table ratio and the tournament organizer’s refusal to cut off the field/entries when they reach a level that begins to negatively impact scheduling.

When you let this many players enter the crash landing at the end is inevitable and in fact makes the whole event a slog.

Lou Figueroa
 
In the case of Derby City, it's not on the TD. It is 100% on the promoter, Greg Sullivan. He chooses how many to let enter and the format. The particular buy-back format they use causes complete uncertainty about scheduling and results in tables sitting open in the middle rounds with players just standing around when they could be playing. There is another buy-back format that would keep the tables busy and allow clear scheduling.

Greg does not care about the problems. Or at least, he is not willing to fix them.

If you want change, speak directly to Greg.
Exactly. The buy-back format needs to go 'bye-bye' imo. Scheduling/seeding/streaming are a nightmare.
 
I’ve always felt that the root problem with the DDC is the player to table ratio and the tournament organizer’s refusal to cut off the field/entries when they reach a level that begins to negatively impact scheduling.

When you let this many players enter the crash landing at the end is inevitable and in fact makes the whole event a slog.

Lou Figueroa
Too many combined with buy-back just is not good.
 
The big thing for tournament directors is start on time.... no excuse. Be prepared. If players are not signed up by a certain time, then their tough luck.

Next... players need to be ready when called. Waiting until your match start is not the time to take a piss break. Keep an eye on the brackets and you will have a good idea when your turn is about to come up.

Players need to play with pace. Pay attention to the table. A d immediately go to table when it's your shot.

If players cant manage these simple things, then maybe a shot clock should be mandatory.

Most smaller tournaments need to be played on weekends. Most people cannot take off of work to play pool. If it's a popular tournament, consider a preliminary round on the prior weekend to whittle down the numbers.
 
This is just from an amateur perspective, but much of what has been said is the main reason I don't play tournaments anymore either. Even before having kids, pool tournaments are so disorganized and unpredictable from a scheduling standpoint. As a middling 600 FR player, I like challenging myself and playing against good players if I'm going to play, so that generally means bigger events, that are multi day. Yes, if you play bad maybe you play on Friday, Saturday morning and then the rest of your Saturday and Sunday are free, but I can't have that mindset and it also doesn't allow you to schedule much for the rest of your weekend after ponying up your entry. If I ever play, I need to have the mindset that I'm going to try to win and just have to assume that if I enter, I'm going to be a slave to the unpredictable nature of the tourney schedule, until I'm out. When I wasn't married and didn't have kids, my love for competing was strong enough to fade all this and enter as many events as I could anyways. On occasion, I would even have my better half come watch some, but what did that even mean. Call her and tell her I think I'm playing in about an hour. Then she comes and waits for another hour after I thought I was going to play, to then sit 20 yards away and not hardly be able to even see what's going on. Now that I have 2 kids under 3 forget about it. I have a diamond at home and will always have a diamond at home. This at least allows me to enjoy the game a few hours a week on my own schedule. Someday, I might even play 1 night of league per week again for the social aspect. My hope is a few years from now, I'll be able to go out and compete again, but even once the kids are grown up, that will probably only amount to a few tourneys a year if that. My kids, their sports, schedules, etc. will always come first. As far as running tourneys, I'm not saying it's anyone's fault or I could do better or anything like that. It just kind of is what it is. Unfortunately, if I get a relatively free weekend, pool is not at the top of the list for me anymore. Even to go play a weekly tourney, most of those are supposed to start at say 7 or 8pm, but actually start an hour later. Then, if you play well, you are playing the finals from 1-3am. Along the way, you might have to play people who you are waiting on because they are outside having another cigarette or getting another beer and because of the amount of this, watch the tourney drag out for another hour or two. That's another thing, I rarely drink when I go out because I have to drive home. So if I go play a weekly, I go with a more serious mindset. Half the people in the field will have a completely different mindset, which is fine, just makes it that much harder to be motivated to go grind out $120 for first. I don't have a big solution either. I'm fine with the choices I've made, but I completely agree that it's a travesty that half of us (myself included) didn't stay up to watch the 9ball finals of the Derby....I tend to agree that this is unacceptable. I know Matchroom has it's issues or things people are unhappy about, but like someone else said, at least if they get a tour up and running, they'll have the better matches played at reasonable viewing hours. Nonetheless, I'm still glad I'm able to play pool at all and enjoy it a lot, even if I rarely have an opponent anymore.
 
If smoking is allowed, that makes it worth the late-night wait, and the kitchen is open for breakfast, better service cause...
 
I'm curious now. How's it work?
It's dead simple. Run 16-player single-elimination qualifiers. Once your group starts, you play straight through to get a qualifier. If you get knocked out, you can enter another. Or, you can go have dinner, sleep, and then enter another. The up-to 64 qualified players play a single elimination main tournament. That would be up to 1024 entries, including buy-backs. If you keep the tables busy, there is plenty of time for that many entries.

This has been used successfully around here both in weeklies and regional events.
 
This is just from an amateur perspective, but much of what has been said is the main reason I don't play tournaments anymore either. Even before having kids, pool tournaments are so disorganized and unpredictable from a scheduling standpoint. As a middling 600 FR player, I like challenging myself and playing against good players if I'm going to play, so that generally means bigger events, that are multi day. Yes, if you play bad maybe you play on Friday, Saturday morning and then the rest of your Saturday and Sunday are free, but I can't have that mindset and it also doesn't allow you to schedule much for the rest of your weekend after ponying up your entry. If I ever play, I need to have the mindset that I'm going to try to win and just have to assume that if I enter, I'm going to be a slave to the unpredictable nature of the tourney schedule, until I'm out. When I wasn't married and didn't have kids, my love for competing was strong enough to fade all this and enter as many events as I could anyways. On occasion, I would even have my better half come watch some, but what did that even mean. Call her and tell her I think I'm playing in about an hour. Then she comes and waits for another hour after I thought I was going to play, to then sit 20 yards away and not hardly be able to even see what's going on. Now that I have 2 kids under 3 forget about it. I have a diamond at home and will always have a diamond at home. This at least allows me to enjoy the game a few hours a week on my own schedule. Someday, I might even play 1 night of league per week again for the social aspect. My hope is a few years from now, I'll be able to go out and compete again, but even once the kids are grown up, that will probably only amount to a few tourneys a year if that. My kids, their sports, schedules, etc. will always come first. As far as running tourneys, I'm not saying it's anyone's fault or I could do better or anything like that. It just kind of is what it is. Unfortunately, if I get a relatively free weekend, pool is not at the top of the list for me anymore. Even to go play a weekly tourney, most of those are supposed to start at say 7 or 8pm, but actually start an hour later. Then, if you play well, you are playing the finals from 1-3am. Along the way, you might have to play people who you are waiting on because they are outside having another cigarette or getting another beer and because of the amount of this, watch the tourney drag out for another hour or two. That's another thing, I rarely drink when I go out because I have to drive home. So if I go play a weekly, I go with a more serious mindset. Half the people in the field will have a completely different mindset, which is fine, just makes it that much harder to be motivated to go grind out $120 for first. I don't have a big solution either. I'm fine with the choices I've made, but I completely agree that it's a travesty that half of us (myself included) didn't stay up to watch the 9ball finals of the Derby....I tend to agree that this is unacceptable. I know Matchroom has it's issues or things people are unhappy about, but like someone else said, at least if they get a tour up and running, they'll have the better matches played at reasonable viewing hours. Nonetheless, I'm still glad I'm able to play pool at all and enjoy it a lot, even if I rarely have an opponent anymore.
no offense brother but just looking at this wall of letters gave me a headache. ;)
 
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