My rant: Finals shouldn't be played at 1AM on a multi-day event

[SmoothStroke]

I'm just getting in stroke around 1am.
If you can't grind on a pool table to 7am, then hit the diner for french toast, link sausage, bacon, or both, 2 eggs over, home fries, english muffin, pineapple juice and a coffee, maybe a muffin,
You will never amount to anything.

After breakfast if the wind and tide is right I'm sliding on a wet suit and going fishing.
Swim out to boulder field, get knocked off boulder 100 times, catching my second gear.
I bet the old man Shane could bang out a race to 100 and come catch a tide with me.
These new pool players are lightweights I tell ya.

 

[Tin Man]

I'm just getting in stroke around 1am.
If you can't grind on a pool table to 7am, then hit the diner for french toast, link sausage, bacon, or both, 2 eggs over, home fries, english muffin, pineapple juice and a coffee, maybe a muffin,
You will never amount to anything.

After breakfast if the wind and tide is right I'm sliding on a wet suit and going fishing.
Swim out to boulder field, get knocked off boulder 100 times, catching my second gear.
I bet the old man Shane could bang out a race to 100 and come catch a tide with me.
These new pool players are lightweights I tell ya.

Hey Smooth. When using sarcasm as humor is it should be exaggerated so people can tell for sure you’re joking. The problem is apparently some people would say what you just wrote with sincerity.

 

[chefjeff]

I had my most spectacular runnout at 4:00 am in a tourney. I still think about it. 4 of my 5 balls were totally trapped and so was the cueball after my opponent's safety putting me inside the rack. I got out with kicks and 3 railers and caroms and kick/caroms, etc. It was spectacular, to say the least.

I didn't care. I lost and went home and slept and was glad I lost.

Glad I lost....yeah, there's the attitude we want to promote in pool


Jeff Livingston

 

[BasementDweller]

Not many addressed my point. That being that I think us players are just as much at fault as the tourney directors. Too many players love playing into the wee hours of the night. I've been guilty of this, and I can't imagine there's a serious player alive that hasn't. In this regard, pool can't be compared to other sports as most of them are played outdoors. So they are naturally limited in how late they can go. Also, pool has another big difference in that the less demanding physical nature of the game makes it possible to even consider playing for 15 hours in one day.

Competition is increasing though. Even in areas where they aren't as many tourneys to choose from, it still seems like there are more because we know about every single one of them! Poor directors are called out directly on social media, and players find new tourneys. I personally care more about a director's transparency and track record than I do about how late their tourneys run. At least at this point (key qualifier).

 

[chefjeff]

I worked graveyard for 11 years.

Never once did I wish to watch a sports program during the night. I wished to sleep. The physical demands of staying up all night are huge!

There needs to be a watchable, in real time, climax to pool tourneys that folks can come with, so to speak. Without the proverbial shot, ahem, why watch any of it? Reading about it tomorrow doesn't cut it.

Why can't tournaments have a Sunday afternoon show with just the finals of all the formats being played? Folks could bring their kids to watch and then stop at the table booth and discuss ordering a new table for the basement, etc.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Maniac]

Why can't tournaments have a Sunday afternoon show with just the finals of all the formats being played?


Jeff Livingston

Drag racing does this and it's been highly successful for years!

 

[chefjeff]

Drag racing does this and it's been highly successful for years!

Yep. My buddy's into drag racing and travels to Topeka, etc. and he gets back to town late Sunday night, in time to sleep for work the next day.

He also play pool and has NEVER, as in never, played in the state tourneys because, "I'm not staying up in the wee hours to play pool after a whole week of it." He won't even talk about going to state anymore. I can't blame him.

I've done 5 day long state tournies for about 30 years going. This year is the first year I'm not doing single events cuz I don't want to be playing until early morning then get up after 3 hours sleep to do it again at 8 or 9. The money isn't worth it, there is no social benefit cuz no one knows or cares who won the damn thing by the time it's written. In fact, I'm hoping our team isn't in the finals cuz I don't want to bear it anymore.

There needs to be a watchable, timely climax to pool tourneys, IF money matters.



Jeff Livingston

 

[WoodyJ]

My 2 cents after being a spectator at the recent DCC following my friend around who played in all the events. So, not being a player, I may be wrong about this.

If people want to buy back in after losing their first round, make them do so immediately after their loss when the results are reported. Seemed like they were always waiting for people to decide if they wanted to buy back in and, therefore, there were always a lot of to be determineds (TBDs) that could have been determined earlier.

Even better, if someone knows that they are going to buy back in, let them declare that before their match starts and pay the money beforehand.

And, if they know that they are not going to buy back in after losing a match, declare that also before the match starts. For example, one person in our group decided to play in the one pocket ($160 plus you get a pass for the full event) versus paying $100 for an event pass. He knew he wasn't going to buy back in when he lost but it seems like they probably waited for some time to see if he would.

Pain in the butt having your next match be TBD seemingly forever (and they post a note at the top of the schedule that all TBDs will start play at whatever time -- say 10am the next day), then you decide to go out to eat or go to sleep and kerpow you are suddenly scheduled to play before the time they posted (say 10pm or later the same day).

P.S.: One big kudos to the event organizers. This time you could check the schedule on-line wherever you were and quickly search for someone's name! Last time you had to stand in a croud looking at the projectors on walls while it slowly scrolled through the list.

 

[ddg45]

I

Good point. I played a slow guy last night late. I sped him up with my play. I don't think he knew what I was doing to his rhythm. He was a good potter but not a good player, yet.

I decided to play fast and loose, as it is called, and went for shots, etc. that I normally might not have done. I won by speeding up the game and everyone was happy to have us finish the last match at about 11 pm, I think. I'm too old for this shit. My bedtime is 8:00.


Jeff Livingston

Actually none of it is that. All of it is slow play. If you walk in on a late match and ask why they're still playing, they will always point to the score sheet where two 2's played 60 innings or two 6's played 20 defensive shots each. But when you show them that following the time guidelines STILL gets them done by 11, and ask again why they're still there, they have no answer. The 2's stand there and stare at the table for minutes, then call a time out if they have one, and the 6's think they get extra time if they're playing defense. The 2's need to learn that they don't always need to make the perfect decision. Over time, their decision making will improve - that's part of being a 2. The 6's, believe it or not, need to learn the same thing - make a decision and live with the results. Timely thinking and decision making is part of your skill set, and often needs to improve. Fear of failure should not cause you to play slowly.

I respectfully disagree. Slow pay is a problem and 2's can take forever to play a match so you're correct there. However, I've played in bars that REALLY don't want to double up on tables and 2 teams play on one table all night. I've also been told by someone who works for our local APA owner it was because the bar wanted to make more money in food and drinks by keeping us there as late as possible. There are all kinds of reasons why play goes on too late and I imagine it varies by location and APA operator.

 

[Maniac]

However, I've played in bars that REALLY don't want to double up on tables and 2 teams play on one table all night. I've also been told by someone who works for our local APA owner it was because the bar wanted to make more money in food and drinks by keeping us there as late as possible. There are all kinds of reasons why play goes on too late and I imagine it varies by location and APA operator.

Per APA Team Manual:

17. SPLITTING MATCHES A team match is normally played on one table. Occasionally, lengthy matches make it logical to split a team match onto a second table, if a second table of the same size is available. If the fourth match has not started by two hours after the official League start time, teams should put up their next player and start play on a second table. The fifth match would then be played on the first table that becomes available. If the fifth player is not present, a forfeit cannot be called until the fourth match has concluded. A team is subject to penalties if it deliberately prevents a second table from being available, or resists using the second table to split the match. The option to split matches can only be waived if both teams agree to complete the match on one table.

The rule is very cut-and-dried here. We've had teams in our league that didn't want to split tables. We have a team of mostly working people. Eventually, our team captain called the LO whenever a team refused to split tables and they were told that they HAD to split tables...per the rule. Now, we don't have a problem with teams not wanting to split tables.

Maniac

 

[APA Operator]

I



I respectfully disagree. Slow pay is a problem and 2's can take forever to play a match so you're correct there. However, I've played in bars that REALLY don't want to double up on tables and 2 teams play on one table all night. I've also been told by someone who works for our local APA owner it was because the bar wanted to make more money in food and drinks by keeping us there as late as possible. There are all kinds of reasons why play goes on too late and I imagine it varies by location and APA operator.

If 2's take a long time it's only because they are ignoring the time guidelines (20 second average per shot) and their teammates let them do so. If they stuck to the guidelines teams wouldn't need a second table and would still be done by 11. Next time out do the math for all five matches and see when you're supposed to be done.

 

[fastone371]

Drag racing does this and it's been highly successful for years!

I raced for a couple of decades, even finishing up final rounds Sunday afternoon you are lucky to get any sleep before work on Monday after loading up and driving home. I would guess on average most sportsman racers travel 8-10 hours to most races they attend. I have done the drive all night Thursday night to race for 3 days on very little sleep then drive home Sunday all night to get home as the paperboy drops off the morning paper. If you are lucky you have just enough time to drop the trailer and get everything parked before leaving for work, that way soon as you get home from work you can sleep (unless the car is broken).

 

[Maniac]

I raced for a couple of decades, even finishing up final rounds Sunday afternoon you are lucky to get any sleep before work on Monday after loading up and driving home. I would guess on average most sportsman racers travel 8-10 hours to most races they attend. I have done the drive all night Thursday night to race for 3 days on very little sleep then drive home Sunday all night to get home as the paperboy drops off the morning paper. If you are lucky you have just enough time to drop the trailer and get everything parked before leaving for work, that way soon as you get home from work you can sleep (unless the car is broken).

I wasn't comparing drag racing to pool. I was only emphasizing that pool could (LIKE drag racing) hold all the quarter-finals, semi-finals, and finals on Sunday and easily be finished by late afternoon.

It doesn't take much time for a pool player to case up his equipment and be out of the venue once he/she is out of the tournament.

Time spent travelling is a necessary evil for any sportsman/athlete that performs on any regular league/tours/tournaments. Many pool players are in a tournament of some kind or another nearly every week/weekend of the year (not to mention regional tours that some play in) as opposed to drag racers that never race 52 weekends out of the year.

This crap (the OP's topic) could easily be fixed.

Maniac

 

[Bob Jewett]

... work on Monday ...

There's your problem right there!

For years I drove to regional tournaments thinking about how if I lost I could drive back Saturday night. I eventually committed for the duration and did pretty well. To hell with Monday.

Honest work has destroyed more good men than drink or women. -- Voltaire​

 

[APA Operator]

I wasn't comparing drag racing to pool. I was only emphasizing that pool could (LIKE drag racing) hold all the quarter-finals, semi-finals, and finals on Sunday and easily be finished by late afternoon.

It doesn't take much time for a pool player to case up his equipment and be out of the venue once he/she is out of the tournament.

If you're holding the event in a pool hall, sure. But if you're in a convention center or some place that isn't normally set up for pool, there may be extra costs in that. For instance, in Vegas the room setup is usually done with union labor, and if they have to come in late on a Sunday they could charge more. Depending on the contract with the venue, some or all of that extra cost could be charged to the promoter. Venues like to schedule the events back-to-back, so if your event has the room booked through Sunday they want you gone and the room torn down Sunday night. So the later you go on Sunday, the more likely you are to incur extra charges.

I'm not saying it can't be done, just that the promoter has to consider the extra charges when planning an event like that. The APA does it, holding the semis and finals of each event early on the day after each event reaches that point. They are big enough that they book the venue for a couple of days after the event and the venue is happy to comply. Smaller events though, not so much.

 

[ddg45]

Per APA Team Manual:

17. SPLITTING MATCHES A team match is normally played on one table. Occasionally, lengthy matches make it logical to split a team match onto a second table, if a second table of the same size is available. If the fourth match has not started by two hours after the official League start time, teams should put up their next player and start play on a second table. The fifth match would then be played on the first table that becomes available. If the fifth player is not present, a forfeit cannot be called until the fourth match has concluded. A team is subject to penalties if it deliberately prevents a second table from being available, or resists using the second table to split the match. The option to split matches can only be waived if both teams agree to complete the match on one table.

The rule is very cut-and-dried here. We've had teams in our league that didn't want to split tables. We have a team of mostly working people. Eventually, our team captain called the LO whenever a team refused to split tables and they were told that they HAD to split tables...per the rule. Now, we don't have a problem with teams not wanting to split tables.

Maniac

I never realized, or was told by players that have played APA for years, that it was a rule. Interesting...