My struggle with follow

Yes. :p

I can usually sort out where I went wrong using draw, and its often poking, jabbing and/or hitting too hard. I get it, I just struggle trying to correct it. I do understand the process, I think. I simply need to execute it better, and resist those bad instincts.

Conversely, I adapted to follow family easy, early on as I learned the game. Thus my curiosity about players struggling with one but not the other. Along with seeing some of that with some players I play with locally.

I wonder what the correlation might be. Its interesting.

It's a little complicated but I'll try to explain my observations about that:

First, I think we can all pretty much agree that nobody really starts out playing pool as a rank beginner drawing the cue ball. Most don't even know that draw is an option at that point.

As they develop, players will be faced with hitting shots harder and softer. Now their personality on the table will begin to emerge as they figure out how to deal with missed shots. Some players come to realize that if they hit shots softer, they won't miss as much. Other players are more willing to power through the misses and continue to stroke with some force.

Sometimes it's the influence of other players they admire and sometimes it's simply just their own sense of logic driving them. The harder hitters will take to draw easier than soft shots, just as the softer hitters will take to shooting top spin shots easier.

Once the players become advanced, they become proficient at both, but if you look closely at them, you will see what they prefer by their position choices when playing. But while a player is still developing, you will see that they are struggling more with either back spin or top spin because one is more out of their comfort zone than the other.
 
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Makes a lot of sense.

I tend towards softer shots, follow is easier and draw is more difficult for me. A close friend on one of my teams tends to hit it harder (ok, often hits it too hard lol) and struggles with follow.

Yup. A lot of sense in that. Thanks
 
Yes. :p

I can usually sort out where I went wrong using draw, and its often poking, jabbing and/or hitting too hard. I get it, I just struggle trying to correct it. I do understand the process, I think. I simply need to execute it better, and resist those bad instincts.

Conversely, I adapted to follow family easy, early on as I learned the game. Thus my curiosity about players struggling with one but not the other. Along with seeing some of that with some players I play with locally.

I wonder what the correlation might be. Its interesting.

One other possibility. With draw, you must have tip contact below the horizontal center. When you do this, you are not hitting with the center of your tip, but with the top edge of it. It's possible you are actually hitting closer to center than you think. Try dropping your tip until you actually mis-cue. then come back up just a little.
Just one more thing to consider.
Steve
 
ronscuba...I don't think that's what Matt means. There are those who don't understand that you NEVER stroke at an upwards angle (perhaps on some trick shots)...just like there are those who believe that the tip should finish in the air to get good follow on the CB. Both ideas are myths.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Meaning the cue is angled up at impact ?

Will this potentially create a problem if the hit is slightly off center vs. using a more level stroke ?
 
ronscuba...I don't think that's what Matt means. There are those who don't understand that you NEVER stroke at an upwards angle (perhaps on some trick shots)...just like there are those who believe that the tip should finish in the air to get good follow on the CB. Both ideas are myths.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
So are these ideas mental tricks to help you achieve the end result ? If so, for follow shots with English should I also visualize an upward stroke ?

I have experienced good results with follow shots visualizing an upward stroke, but when using English, results were not as good.
 
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Not imo...the tip should end up on or near the cloth on all shots...never up in the air.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So are these ideas mental tricks to help you achieve the end result ? If so, for follow shots with English should I also visualize an upward stroke ?

I have experienced good results with follow shots visualizing an upward stroke, but when using English, results were not as good.
 
One other possibility. With draw, you must have tip contact below the horizontal center. When you do this, you are not hitting with the center of your tip, but with the top edge of it. It's possible you are actually hitting closer to center than you think. Try dropping your tip until you actually mis-cue. then come back up just a little.
Just one more thing to consider.
Steve

Agreed! Quite likely that is the issue.

When I've consciously tried getting lower, you know what inevitably happened....yup, scooped it! :p I simply need to become better aware of the tip position on these shots, and to not over hit it. Better focus and concentration, and I will have better success.

Thanks
 
Meaning the cue is angled up at impact ?

Will this potentially create a problem if the hit is slightly off center vs. using a more level stroke ?

The up-angle stroke is to guarantee a clean strike with overspin, using the bottom of the cue tip. It is better IMHO than the level topspin stroke at center ball, so it would logically be less problematic on a hit with english or a mishit off-center when aiming for the center.
 
Guys.

The cue ball doesn't know what stroke hit it. It only knows Angle, Speed & Spin. If you are having trouble with follow or draw, check your stroke. The cue ball does exactly where you strike it.

The SPF Stroke allows us to strike the cue ball in a desired place on every stroke!

randyg
 
I am having issues with follow. This has never been a problem until here recently. If i put draw on the ball i have zero issues but every time i attempt to hit high cue ball i seem to be missing shots. Any idea on what may be going on here?

Your located right in Rang G territory.

Your doing something fundamentally wrong and it really can't be corrected using words.

Spend the money take a lesson. Or, you can spend the next year or two trying to figure it out on your own.

He could probably have you straightened out in 10 or 15 min. Then you will have to practice what is taught.

Give him a call, be the best money you ever spent.

And no, I have never taken lessons from Randy but he does have one heck of a reputation.

John
 
Guys.

The cue ball doesn't know what stroke hit it. It only knows Angle, Speed & Spin. If you are having trouble with follow or draw, check your stroke. The cue ball does exactly where you strike it.

The SPF Stroke allows us to strike the cue ball in a desired place on every stroke!

randyg

You are correct. However, there are two considerations here:

1. Most people who try ten regular follow strokes and ten up the ladder find up the ladder easier to execute. I say "most" but I mean "almost everyone".

2. The angle at which the cue tip strikes the cue ball sends force along its vector. You can hit above center with an up-to-down strike and the cue ball jumps or a down-to-up strike and tend to get better overspin, faster.
 
Simply put...nope. :eek: :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

You are correct. However, there are two considerations here:

1. Most people who try ten regular follow strokes and ten up the ladder find up the ladder easier to execute. I say "most" but I mean "almost everyone".

2. The angle at which the cue tip strikes the cue ball sends force along its vector. You can hit above center with an up-to-down strike and the cue ball jumps or a down-to-up strike and tend to get better overspin, faster.
 
On the posted video link of Shane and Efren, for follow shots, they both aim their tip at center ball on their practice strokes and before the final pull back.
 
On the posted video link of Shane and Efren, for follow shots, they both aim their tip at center ball on their practice strokes and before the final pull back.

Yes, and the finishing position will depend on whether or not they drop their elbow or manipulate their grip hand on the shot, and the timing of when they do those things. You'll see a variety of finishing positions among the pros when they use top spin.
 
I like the physical science and analysis aspects but also appreciate the power of visualization and imagery to achieve the end result.

So while the CB might not care what happens before or after impact, maybe the visualization of stroking upward for follow shots might have merit ?

Why are Shane and Efren both shooting follow shots with their tip starting at center ball ?
 
I like the physical science and analysis aspects but also appreciate the power of visualization and imagery to achieve the end result.

So while the CB might not care what happens before or after impact, maybe the visualization of stroking upward for follow shots might have merit ?

Why are Shane and Efren both shooting follow shots with their tip starting at center ball ?

And WHY are they aiming on the cloth when they shoot draw shots ? Or one tip below center when they shoot stun shots ?

The best shotmakers in the world shoot this way. With the tip moving upwards on the final stroke. Ronnie O' Sullivan plays this way in snooker.

Bert Kinister has a video discussing this stroke technique.
 
And WHY are they aiming on the cloth when they shoot draw shots ? Or one tip below center when they shoot stun shots ?

The best shotmakers in the world shoot this way. With the tip moving upwards on the final stroke. Ronnie O' Sullivan plays this way in snooker.

Bert Kinister has a video discussing this stroke technique.

This has all been discussed many times on here. But, I'll ask you a question-
How do you know that they don't raise the butt of the cue in the first couple of inches of the final forward stroke, and then hit the cb with a near level cue?

Here's something else for you to ponder-

Some believe that hitting with an upward moving cue does something different to the reaction of the cb. Think about this for a little while. The tip is only in contact with the cb for .001 seconds. That is about 1/8" of travel. Now, for it to be possible for the tip to be moving upwards at contact, that would mean that ones timing would have to be so perfect as to be level on 99.999% of forward travel, and then at the last inch or two of cue travel it would have to be raised. And, still hit accurately where you want to on the cb. Good luck with doing that.
 
Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Why do they start with their tip pointed at center ball ?
 
Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Why do they start with their tip pointed at center ball ?

Considering that the ball is round and the nearest point to the shooter would be dead center, aiming center and shooting with an upward swiping motion would result in the tip hitting the ball earlier and staying on the ball a hair longer as it swipes up the cue ball. (Try it with a large ball or a beach ball and you'll see what I mean.)

I'm pretty sure that's what happens, although I'm not sure what it means. That would be for the scientists to figure out. It's the same thing as applying side spin with a swiping motion. Most instructors poo-poo that method, but I'm not ready to write it off. I think there's something to it --- at least something worth investigating.
 
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