My TOI experience

[ENGLISH!]

Hey Rick,

If you want to see something pretty wild watch this YT of Joe Tucker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-prVQMEHgg

Pay real close attention to where he is putting his cue tip on the cue ball while aiming (the out side of the cue shaft) and where he puts his cue tip when he shoots the shot.

He is using extreme TOI to aim.

This works very well. Give it a try, I think you will like it.

John :smile:

Hi John,

Thanks.

I'd be interested to know exactly where on the OB he is aiming & with what part of the tip. I would assume the outside part of the tip to the edge of the OB. Then he moves to center & pivots to the inside. Does he pivot to center or move parallel. I'll go back & watch it again.

It is at least interesting.

Best Regards, Wishes

 

[ENGLISH!]

John,

It looks like he is doing a pivot to center with his bridge sliding a bit too. I'd say he is missing the ones he's missing by not accelerating enough & the ball is swerving back a bit.

That's too much for me, I'm trying to speed up my play not slow it down.

On those, with my LD shafts I just align CTE, roll the butt end a bit to the inside then let the tip follow just the 'touch' & shoot with acceleration.

Thanks again for thinking of me.

All of the Best to You,
Rick

PS Please check for a PM i'm sending you shortly.

 

[One Pocket John]

John,

It looks like he is doing a pivot to center with his bridge sliding a bit too. I'd say he is missing the ones he's missing by not accelerating enough & the ball is swerving back a bit.

That's too much for me, I'm trying to speed up my play not slow it down.

On those, with my LD shafts I just align CTE, roll the butt end a bit to the inside then let the tip follow just the 'touch' & shoot with acceleration.

Thanks again for thinking of me.

All of the Best to You,
Rick

PS Please check for a PM i'm sending you shortly.

I was also hoping that CJ could chime in to help explain what Joe is doing. Joe states in the comments below the YT video that he does this to correct a parallax issue he has. Which would seem to indicate that this is being done to correct a vision center issue. (head not square to the shot line)

I have taken what Joe is doing to the table and it really helps on long thin cuts as shown in his video.

The wife is out in Tucson, AZ for a couple of weeks. Wed. night I sat in her recliner, watched the Nascar truck race at Eldora on her HD TV and drank a few beers. I'm also leaving the toilet seat up. Free at last.....for a while. :smile:

John

 

[ENGLISH!]

I was also hoping that CJ could chime in to help explain what Joe is doing. Joe states in the comments below the YT video that he does this to correct a parallax issue he has. Which would seem to indicate that this is being done to correct a vision center issue. (head not square to the shot line)

I have taken what Joe is doing to the table and it really helps on long thin cuts as shown in his video.

The wife is out in Tucson, AZ for a couple of weeks. Wed. night I sat in her recliner, watched the Nascar truck race at Eldora on her HD TV and drank a few beers. I'm also leaving the toilet seat up. Free at last.....for a while. :smile:

John

John,

Thanks for the chuckle.

Now don't get up in the middle of the night to go put that seat down.

All the Best to You,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Sometimes a thinking problem is worse than a drinking problem in billiards" CJ Wiley

Hi CJ,

Just out of curiousity, if you had a shot into a corner pocket with the balls about 3 to 4 diamonds apart with the actual line very close to the CTE alignment but you perceived that to be a very slight over cut, what would you do?

I've actually gone a touch of outside to squirt the ball to take the bit of over cut off of the shot (not spin). I can not go CTC & squirt the ball far enough to get enough cut on that type of shot.

I was just wondering what you would do.

Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick

I would draw a line from the cue ball through the edge (to the rail), and if it goes further than two diamond over from the pocket I'd use Center to Edge. I treat every shot like it's a straight in shot to the rail, so when I look at the balls I see where they correlate to the rail and make a mental note of that. If the object ball is close to the rail I'll usually use Center/Edge and if it's more in the middle of the table I may lean towards Center/Center.....again, these are just reference points, you can make the shot using the wrong one and you can miss the shot using the right one.

"Sometimes a thinking problem is worse than a drinking problem in billiards" CJ Wiley

THIS is why it's important to let your unconscious get involved and not think so much. NO TOP PLAYER thinks about "aiming".....you must develop a "Feel For the Pocket" and this is done below the conscious level. Trying to "Become" the cue ball is what worked for me, of course, this simply means to "become absorbed into the game." 'The Game is the Teacher

 

[ENGLISH!]

I would draw a line from the cue ball through the edge (to the rail), and if it goes further than two diamond over from the pocket I'd use Center to Edge. I treat every shot like it's a straight in shot to the rail, so when I look at the balls I see where they correlate to the rail and make a mental note of that. If the object ball is close to the rail I'll usually use Center/Edge and if it's more in the middle of the table I may lean towards Center/Center.....again, these are just reference points, you can make the shot using the wrong one and you can miss the shot using the right one.

"Sometimes a thinking problem is worse than a drinking problem in billiards" CJ Wiley

THIS is why it's important to let your unconscious get involved and not think so much. NO TOP PLAYER thinks about "aiming".....you must develop a "Feel For the Pocket" and this is done below the conscious level. Trying to "Become" the cue ball is what worked for me, of course, this simply means to "become absorbed into the game." 'The Game is the Teacher

Thanks CJ,

Thanks for the chuckle too. What is worse is tryig to figure out a thinking problem while drinking.

I usually was shooting very much like you refer regarding 'aiming' & the subconscious, but since TOI is relatively new to me, my subconscious sometimes tells me no & causes some doubt & even with my new to me TOI, my subconscious is still always correct.

Thanks Again & All the Best to You,
Rick

 

[CJ Wiley]

.simply close your eyes and really FEEL the shot,

Thanks CJ,

Thanks for the chuckle too. What is worse is tryig to figure out a thinking problem while drinking.

I usually was very much like you refer regarding 'aiming' & the subconscious, but since TOI is relatively new to me, my subconscious sometimes tells me no & causes some doubt & even with the my new to me TOI, my subconscious is still always correct.

Thanks Again & All the Best to You,
Rick

Then start lining up your shot, then close your eyes, take another "practice stroke" and pull the trigger. This will help you get over your issues with your doubt. I have students close their eyes in many cases to erase old subconscious patterns so they can replace them with correct, more effective ones.

This is also a good exercise for longer straight in shots...simply close your eyes and really FEEL the shot, this works in many ways, shapes and games. :thumbup:

PS: I like to line up the shot, then turn my head, taking my cue out of my bridge, point it behind me, then return it and shoot without ever turning my head towards the shot. This helps me to identify slight errors in my feel/shot relationship. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ENGLISH!]

Then start lining up your shot, then close your eyes, take another "practice stroke" and pull the trigger. This will help you get over your issues with your doubt. I have students close their eyes in many cases to erase old subconscious patterns so they can replace them with correct, more effective ones.

This is also a good exercise for longer straight in shots...simply close your eyes and really FEEL the shot, this works in many ways, shapes and games. :thumbup:

PS: I like to line up the shot, then turn my head, taking my cue out of my bridge, point it behind me, then return it and shoot without ever turning my head towards the shot. This helps me to identify slight errors in my feel/shot relationship. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Thanks CJ.

I'll give those both a try. I've done that a few times at the driving range.

Have a great evening,
Rick

 

[AtLarge]

... If you want to see something pretty wild watch this YT of Joe Tucker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-prVQMEHgg

Pay real close attention to where he is putting his cue tip on the cue ball while aiming (the out side of the cue shaft) and where he puts his cue tip when he shoots the shot.

He is using extreme TOI to aim. ...

I don't think there is any CJ-TOI going on here. I think all Joe is doing with his initial cue placement on those thin cuts is aiming straight from contact point to contact point. Then he either (1) shifts parallel to center CB and shoots (on a few shots) or (2) shifts first to center CB and then moves a bit inside before shooting with inside english.

 

[CJ Wiley]

'The Game will be your Teacher' (through experiencing and experimenting)

I don't think there is any CJ-TOI going on here. I think all Joe is doing with his initial cue placement on those thin cuts is aiming straight from contact point to contact point. Then he either (1) shifts parallel to center CB and shoots (on a few shots) or (2) shifts first to center CB and then moves a bit inside before shooting with inside english.

This is something other than the Touch of Inside (as we know and recognize it).

I met Joe in Tunica and spoke briefly. From what I gathered we share a lot of similar beliefs when it comes to TOI and pool in general. There is one thing I wanted to share with him about the 10 Ball rack, however that's for a another time, in a different place.

When aligned with TOI many players will pivot back towards center slightly, and there are times when you may want to pivot all the way back to center. Once you're aligned to TOI you are in an ideal position to regulate more or less deflection, and "less is more" accurate. 'The Game will be your Teacher' (through experiencing and experimenting)

 

[obrien714]

I practiced this last night

On long shots I DO NOT advise aligning Center to Edgy, but Center to Center.....I know it may not make sense, but try it anyway, even on the thinnest shot possible I'll align Center / Center, and likewise on CLOSE shots I'll almost always align Center/Edge. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Its hard to believe the TOI just keeps getting better and better. Long thin cuts. CTC its. Works like magic. THX CJ for the useful info.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I can't take credit for this, however I do enjoy the feedback

Its hard to believe the TOI just keeps getting better and better. Long thin cuts. CTC its. Works like magic. THX CJ for the useful info.

Is is "like magic"....some of these techniques defy logic and that's why it's futile to explain them to anyone that's not going to try them out immediately {on the pool table}. Demonstrating and explaining TOI and other systems in person is MUCH easier and more effective for everyone involved For example -

Here's a letter I received this week that makes teaching the Game very satisfying:



CJ did want to tell you that since I came up and got lessons from you my average in a couple leagues have gone up .200 points. I was shooting right around .500 before our lesson and now I'm solidly shooting .700 or a little more. that means I'm winning 70% of the time. thats a pretty good jump and our leagues have a good people playing.

I just started playing apa also since its singles and I am a 5 since I never played in it before and my first three matches were against apa 7s and I beat them all without any handicap. As soon as the money situation gets better (fall) I'll be heading back up. thanks again!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can't take credit for this, however I do enjoy the feedback - 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[obrien714]

U have to use the force to believe in the force.

The more and more you play with toi the more uses and secrets u find. My new nugget of toi coolness is - i was playing tues and the guy would just barly hide me. Well using toi and the deflection i realized it will turn away and swerve around the blocking ball. After the 4th time he thought i was hooked and i shot like i was straight in he got pisssed.

Cj i will work my way down in the near future for some lessons.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The more and more you play with toi the more uses and secrets u find. My new nugget of toi coolness is - i was playing tues and the guy would just barly hide me. Well using toi and the deflection i realized it will turn away and swerve around the blocking ball. After the 4th time he thought i was hooked and i shot like i was straight in he got pisssed.

Cj i will work my way down in the near future for some lessons.

Obrian,

What you just 'real eyesed' is something that I would not really call TOI even though you may be hitting the ball to the inside on the CB.

You just hit a mini masse.

When using the TOI method, one does not want the CB to swerve. If the CB swerves it was hit too softly, or I should say, with not enough forward momentum, for the amount of tip offset & spin put on the ball. CJ sometimes says in the DVDs that he is going to let it spin when talking about getting position. what he means IMHO is that he is not going to hit it in a combination of little spin to speed but rather in a combination of more spin with less speed.

I hope this puts your shot in a better light & gives you a better understanding of the intentions with which one uses an off center hit on the CB.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Jpool1985]

I just got done watching all 100 plus chapters of CJ Wiley videos online for $5. I am amaze how easy and simple he made it with 3-4 different aiming systems and it all base on how you line up cue ball to center but gotta judge on how far over on a cue ball to cut before lining center on cue ball and your body be on the sight line and body set to hit object ball into the angle.

I watched the TOI system and I was making balls like a little angle practice but I wasn't making shot on 30-45 degree angle shot cause I was setting up same as a little angle shot. I was doing center to center everytime but moving half tip or 1 tip on hard cut shot. LOL watching CJ videos I now know I have to look at the edge of the ball and go a tip off and shoot it.

This system is easy only thing is....like CJ says we not perfect we are human. We gotta know how our body work for the TOI:speed and judging on how far off cue ball center using tip...half tip,1 tip or a tip and a half. I can't wait to learn the edge shot using TOI. I already know how to do on small angle using center to center.

I am so going to keep working on this TOI system cause This system is using stick and tip which I do, but CJ system different than what I do on the tip. Hope my game improve little more and hopefully I can get the fractional aiming system out of my head into TOI!

 

[ENGLISH!]

I just got done watching all 100 plus chapters of CJ Wiley videos online for $5. I am amaze how easy and simple he made it with 3-4 different aiming systems and it all base on how you line up cue ball to center but gotta judge on how far over on a cue ball to cut before lining center on cue ball and your body be on the sight line and body set to hit object ball into the angle.

I watched the TOI system and I was making balls like a little angle practice but I wasn't making shot on 30-45 degree angle shot cause I was setting up same as a little angle shot. I was doing center to center everytime but moving half tip or 1 tip on hard cut shot. LOL watching CJ videos I now know I have to look at the edge of the ball and go a tip off and shoot it.

This system is easy only thing is....like CJ says we not perfect we are human. We gotta know how our body work for the TOI:speed and judging on how far off cue ball center using tip...half tip,1 tip or a tip and a half. I can't wait to learn the edge shot using TOI. I already know how to do on small angle using center to center.

I am so going to keep working on this TOI system cause This system is using stick and tip which I do, but CJ system different than what I do on the tip. Hope my game improve little more and hopefully I can get the fractional aiming system out of my head into TOI!

As to your bolded statement above, I have been playing an equal & opposite fractional overlap for 46 yrs. You can use your own aiming system with the TOI squirt/deflection as long as you 'aim' the object ball to the full hit side of the pocket & then just let the CB squirt/deflection add the cut into the center of the pocket.

But since you have watched the whole CJ Wiley system you know that there is more.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[obrien714]

English

Your explanation is spot on. U r correct as i being a mini masse hit at a lesserbspeed. I gues once u learn the lines the cueball takes using TOI it.opens up alot of new routes u never noticed before.

To the above poster. I useds fractional aming for years. It was easy to forget onconceyour TOI starts clicking. Good luck on your journey.

 

[CJ Wiley]

If this sounds too far out, that's fine, just put it on a shelf...........

Obrian,

What you just 'real eyesed' is something that I would not really call TOI even though you may be hitting the ball to the inside on the CB.

You just hit a mini masse.

When using the TOI method, one does not want the CB to swerve. If the CB swerves it was hit too softly, or I should say, with not enough forward momentum, for the amount of tip offset & spin put on the ball. CJ sometimes says in the DVDs that he is going to let it spin when talking about getting position. what he means IMHO is that he is not going to hit it in a combination of little spin to speed but rather in a combination of more spin with less speed.

I hope this puts your shot in a better light & gives you a better understanding of the intentions with which one uses an off center hit on the CB.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

Yes, once you understand how the cue ball moves by hitting it off center it opens up a whole new word of possibilities, like the "mini masse'" that you are describing. TOI doesn't do "everything," and I"ve not made that claim.

What I do claim is the TOI opened up doors for me {in the Game} that would have never opened without it. The cue ball will do what I THINK...and that's very tough to explain, especially to those that don't "real eyes" the power of the sub conscious mind.

The champion players shy away from trying to describe what they do because to the normal person it would sound like "witchcraft" or think they're crazy (they do call Efren "The Magician" and this is more literal than many "real eyes")...but they're not.

At the beginning stages of the TOI Development you have to use more, and as you progress you can use less and less. This is because it starts to align with your unconscious mind, in other words when you deflect the ball slightly on each shot and you mentally KNOW this is happening, it opens up your ability to make the cue ball do what you want just by thinking about it....you can "will" the cue ball to perform as you wish.

If this sounds too far out, that's fine, just put it on a shelf....someday you may want to take it down and experience it for yourself. If just takes 3 hours using ONLY the Touch of Inside (TOI) to start this training. It's MUCH more than just cueing the ball to the inside....it's much, much more. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

. I quick, precise follow through promotes the positive factors of spin/deflection.

Rick,

Have you been able to get back cuts to work with TOI? For example, say the CB is half a diamond off the long rail and two diamonds up from the end and the OB is 3 diamonds down and a diamond and a half out (just past the side pocket) and you're cutting into corner pocket on same side of table. I have been having all kinds of trouble making those cuts with TOI. The other one I'm having trouble is thin cuts where CB and OB are closer together. Such as near the second diamond on long rail and cutting length of table to corner. Those two types of shots are driving me nuts. Any advice you can offer would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Randy

On the long, cut shots I recommend always aligning Center/Center visually before you get down and then cue the TOI and hit the edge, you'll "cut the paint off the ball".

On the close shots I recommend Center/Edge alignment and make sure you accelerate or you'll influence the after contact spin and under cut the shot. A quick acceleration is key and I advise limiting your follow-through, almost like a "punch stroke".

One of the biggest mistakes I see intermediate/advanced players do is an extended follow-through.....this just amplifies negative factors concerning spin/deflection. I quick, precise follow through promotes the positive factors of spin/deflection. imho

 

[Palmetto cue]

This is something other than the Touch of Inside (as we know and recognize it).

I met Joe in Tunica and spoke briefly. From what I gathered we share a lot of similar beliefs when it comes to TOI and pool in general. There is one thing I wanted to share with him about the 10 Ball rack, however that's for a another time, in a different place.

When aligned with TOI many players will pivot back towards center slightly, and there are times when you may want to pivot all the way back to center. Once you're aligned to TOI you are in an ideal position to regulate more or less deflection, and "less is more" accurate. 'The Game will be your Teacher' (through experiencing and experimenting)

It looks to me as if Joe is using 90/90 reverse. Ron Vitello teaches this for thin cuts. Not sure of course. Maybe Joe will chime in.