Name your TOP 5 IPT Las Vegas players. Who's your dark horse?

Colin Colenso said:
This resonates with me John,
The Philippinos have a great range of skills and many of them are continually matching up / playing hard games, making them tourney ready.

But they are not so experienced in 8-ball. As you say, 14.1 players will have some advantages over pure 9-ball players in this game. But 14.1 is not purely enough. 8-ball requires a certain level of planning, cluster breaking, double or triple shot positional playing which are all often not intrinsic to the mind of a 9-ball player or 14.1 player, though I think the Colin
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Oh boy, I guess the outcome of the KOTH and World 8 Ball Championships don't count ey. Nor the fact that the other Pinoys qualified playing against "seasoned 8-ballers". What credentials are you still looking for Colin? The above requirements that you stated are everyday stuff for these guys who grew up and play rotation plus the deck is stacked in their favor. Tight pockets 4 1/2 x 9s, slower cloth, full 15 balls rack where they only need to negotiate to sink 8 balls (run-out in rotation is 11 consecutively numbered balls to get over 61 pts more if giving spots) and the break box (where rotation racks are normally broke from, here). Also, there's quite a trend when it comes to their greatest motivational factor....lots of $$$$$.

It's a vicious cycle here. When these internationalists win, their winnings trickle down to the lower level players. They have so much discretionary funds that they give outrageous spots and at the start loses to these lower ranked players. This strengthens the intestinal fortitude of the lower levels since they get to battle it out with the "faces". The "faces", sooner or later, finds their higher gear which toughens them even more for their international stint. The Philippines is a small country and Manila being the mecca of all the players here who dream to one day become world champions or even to just support their daily needs through playing pool is the biggest advantage. Does any other country have these conditions?

I'm not saying that other players don't have a chance as I'd like to see other players win (I like different) and affect their countrymen the way that Efren and co did here. It's going to be tough but the win is going to be a lot sweeter.
 
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mnorwood said:
Scotty was an early selection. He has won a few major tournaments. I watched Scotty play in a pechauer tournament. He's got the goods.
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Oh yeah, I know he is capable. I used to live in central Louisiana. I just meant I don't see his name mentioned much on here and was surprised he was someone's pick. I wouldn't be surprised if he did well.
Kelly
 
I've only seen a couple of people mention Oliver Ortmann. If he plays like he did in the qualifier at Hard Times he will be awfully tough. He only lost to Orcollo and Dennis had to make a very tough run out in the final game. He should not be overlooked!
 
darkhorse

my pick for a darkhorse ronnie wisman.awsome pressure player ,is capable of and has beaten any of them,and he wants it.i saw him playing in a tournament just before the ohio qualifier and he was in gear.i think he will go far.ya heard it here.
 
I have to agree with Colin for the most part.

On another note,

I'm not entirely certain about this particular tournament, but I'm certain that there will be a large shift in tour card holders for 2007. Of the 150 on the player list now, more than 50 can lose their card if qualified players do well in Vegas and Reno. Some of these qualified players are very dangerous. I think many of the qualified players will be very successful as they've had to really slug it out, and some of these qualifiers were brutal. Having played under a lot of pressure, against other tough players, on the same equipment...gives them a slight experience factor over some of the pre-chosen IPT pros who aren't top players. Also, most people who put up $1,000 to take a shot in a qualifier has some fortitude and has a game to play. Therefore, I think more than 50 names on the current list will lose their tour card.


Back on topic,

I think that the top players will end up being those who really understand 8-ball strategy. There are many very good players who play good 8-ball, but make, what I consider to be, bad choices on the table. Who am I to criticize a pro? Particularly in the area of the game where one must weigh defense vs. offense. It seems many are trying to force an out when the percentages favor a safety. This is clearly the influence of 9-ball run and gun, highly offensive and aggressive play - and that leads to the classic disaster of giving up the table on the 8-ball or with one object ball left which is perhaps the worst thing you can do in 8-ball.


The break will be huge. Players who make balls on the break will chose groups, choice of group does lead to winning more racks over the course of a tournament. And I'm speaking of racks in which both players get an opportunity to shoot, not just a run out.


On the other hand, due to the nasty cloth and tight pockets, games do end up being quite clustered, so while the break is big in that you can either run out or chose the superior group - there's always danger looming as your opponent will get more opportunities to shoot in more racks than they would have had it been 9-ball. Letting any top caliber player at the table could lead to all kinds of consequences.


I think good solid 8-ball knowledge will outweigh the power-break, but not by much. Efren doesn't have a power-break, but he's great at 8-ball. Do you expect him to be eliminated early because he doesn't crush them like Bustamante? I doubt that.


Kicking is also less of an issue. The simple fact that this is call shot alone eliminates 50% of the effectiveness of a kick shot. How many times have we seen a 9-baller kick out of a safe and have the object ball rebound 2 rails and get lucked in? Many times. They often go for a particular pocket, but I've watched plenty of pro tournaments, and they luck balls from kicks all the time after missing the desired target. Not going to happen here. Not to mention smaller pockets dramatically reduces the odds of sinking kick shots.


In the end, you'll find the SMARTEST players who know 8-ball and the strong breakers. But a strong break does not = 8-ball success. The strong breakers that predicted to do well in this tournament also happen to know 8-ball well. The 9-ballers who are used to massive cue ball movement all around the table are going to suffer. 8-ball favors the player that likes to do things as simply as possible. 8-ball is a game where you are greatly rewarded for keeping it simple on the table, but thinking complexly. It is amuzing sometimes, many 9-ball players almost have this attitude that certain patterns are "amateur" because they give up a little bit of ease in shotmaking, in order to play a simpler, safer route rather than send the cue ball moving all around. In 8-ball, you have to sometimes take what you get, because moving the cueball a lot is actually more dangerous due to traffic than just dealing with the tougher pocketing. We've already seen examples of this in the limited OLN KOTH coverage, and I've seen examples of this in a qualifier. As a final note, some 9-ball players have cemented a certain pre-shot/table routine in their game that does not incorporate the amount of thinking time required for 8-ball. This throws off timing and just your general game and rhythm at the table. This isn't going to work well as the difficult gets magnified even more when the pressure is on.

All of that being said, I believe the hard-core 8-ballers and straight pool players will have an edge. There aren't too many young and energetic straight pool players left...and I don't expect many of the HOF'ers to do well.
 
The last 16/32 are all going to be world beaters with monster breaks. Then it will come down to ability to play under pressure, at that stage look out the for big time gamblers, mainly the filipinos ;)
 
bandido said:
Oh boy, I guess the outcome of the KOTH and World 8 Ball Championships don't count ey. Nor the fact that the other Pinoys qualified playing against "seasoned 8-ballers". What credentials are you still looking for Colin? The above requirements that you stated are everyday stuff for these guys who grew up and play rotation plus the deck is stacked in their favor. Tight pockets 4 1/2 x 9s, slower cloth, full 15 balls rack where they only need to negotiate to sink 8 balls (run-out in rotation is 11 consecutively numbered balls to get over 61 pts more if giving spots) and the break box (where rotation racks are normally broke from, here). Also, there's quite a trend when it comes to their greatest motivational factor....lots of $$$$$.

It's a vicious cycle here. When these internationalists win, their winnings trickle down to the lower level players. They have so much discretionary funds that they give outrageous spots and at the start loses to these lower ranked players. This strengthens the intestinal fortitude of the lower levels since they get to battle it out with the "faces". The "faces", sooner or later, finds their higher gear which toughens them even more for their international stint. The Philippines is a small country and Manila being the mecca of all the players here who dream to one day become world champions or even to just support their daily needs through playing pool is the biggest advantage. Does any other country have these conditions?

I'm not saying that other players don't have a chance as I'd like to see other players win (I like different) and affect their countrymen the way that Efren and co did here. It's going to be tough but the win is going to be a lot sweeter.
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Hi Edwin,
I didn't mean any offense to the Filipinos, I'm just going on what Ronnie Alcano told me. He said he doesn't know 8-ball very well and that most the Filipinos don't play it much. His lack of 8-ball strategy let him down on occassion in clustered racks and also by making some outs harder than they needed to be.

But don't get me wrong, the top Filipino players have so many strengths that many of them will be contenders. I just think they can improve in the approximately 30% of games where some specific 8-ball smarts can create an advantage.

The KOH and World 8 Ball were limited in depth to what we will see the IPT events. At the KOH only Efren and Marlon managed over 40% break and run stats, but I think after the first season, the top 30 will be approaching 50% break and run stats and that's when that specialist knowledge will start to make the difference.

Colin
 
Bola Ocho said:
........ I think more than 50 names on the current list will lose their tour card.
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How is it possible for more than 50 to lose their cards?

The IPT wording of the 2007 tour card qualifying criteria could certainly be improved but it doesn't say that any card holders finishing outside the top 100 in the money list will lose their right to retain their cards for 2007,it simply says that the bottom ranked 50 out of the 2006 card holders will lose their right to retain their cards.

I interpret that to be that they intend the top 100 existing card holders out of the existing total 150 card holders (ie not counting any qualifiers who finish in the money list top 100) to keep their cards automatically for 2007 irrespective of whether or not they are actually in the money list top 100.Additionally I interpret that they intend to allocate 2007 tour cards to any qualifier who who paid the higher level entry fee and who finishes in the top 100 in the money list.

The above interpretations would mean that every 2007 tour card won by a 2006 event qualifier by virtue of finishing top 100 in the money list would effectively mean one less available 2007 card to play for in the end of season qualifying event.In other words the 150 exempt tour card holders for 2007 will consist of the top 100 finishers out of the existing card holders plus any full entry fee qualifiers who finish in the money list top 100 plus those who win the remaining balance of cards (whatever number that might be) at the end of season qualifying event.

I could have interpreted IPT wrong,I often do.What do others think?
 
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memikey said:
How is it possible for more than 50 to lose their cards?

The IPT wording of the 2007 tour card qualifying criteria could certainly be improved but it doesn't say that any card holders finishing outside the top 100 in the money list will lose their right to retain their cards for 2007,it simply says that the bottom ranked 50 out of the 2006 card holders will lose their right to retain their cards.

I interpret that to be that they intend the top 100 existing card holders out of the existing total 150 card holders (ie not counting any qualifiers who finish in the money list top 100) to keep their cards automatically for 2007 irrespective of whether or not they are actually in the money list top 100.Additionally I interpret that they intend to allocate 2007 tour cards to any qualifier who who paid the higher level entry fee and who finishes in the top 100 in the money list.

The above interpretations would mean that every 2007 tour card won by a 2006 event qualifier by virtue of finishing top 100 in the money list would effectively mean one less available 2007 card to play for in the end of season qualifying event.In other words the 150 exempt tour card holders for 2007 will consist of the top 100 finishers out of the existing card holders plus any full entry fee qualifiers who finish in the money list top 100 plus those who win the remaining balance of cards (whatever number that might be) at the end of season qualifying event.

I could have interpreted IPT wrong,I often do.What do others think?
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I'm pretty sure the following is how it works:-

*Any player who qualified for any open events and paid the full price entry fee get to be on the money list with the card holders.
*The top 100 money list get 2007 tour cards, IRRESPECTIVE of whether they are tour card holders or not. In other words, you don't need to be a 2006 tour card holder to win a 2007 tour card.
*The end of year 2007 tour card qualifier will make 50 players card holders guaranteed.

Due to the fact a player who qualified for an open event can finish on the top 100 money list, inevitably means more than fifty 2006 card holders will lose their places. HENCE Bola Ocho said he thinks more than 50 will lose their tour cards.

If the IPT actually said 50 tour card holders will lose their place, then this is inaccurate, and may of been said before the IPT decided qualifiers could make the money list.

Was i clear? Please let me know if you're not sure.
 
TheOne said:
The last 16/32 are all going to be world beaters with monster breaks. Then it will come down to ability to play under pressure, at that stage look out the for big time gamblers, mainly the filipinos ;)
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Tap-tap. Endurance will play a major factor in this format. I think that makes Thorsten a big favorite because of his excellent physical and mental conditioning.
 
Blackjack said:
Tap-tap. Endurance will play a major factor in this format. I think that makes Thorsten a big favorite because of his excellent physical and mental conditioning.
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Yes I agree
 
DanielM said:
I'm pretty sure the following is how it works:-

*Any player who qualified for any open events and paid the full price entry fee get to be on the money list with the card holders.
*The top 100 money list get 2007 tour cards, IRRESPECTIVE of whether they are tour card holders or not. In other words, you don't need to be a 2006 tour card holder to win a 2007 tour card.
*The end of year 2007 tour card qualifier will make 50 players card holders guaranteed.

Due to the fact a player who qualified for an open event can finish on the top 100 money list, inevitably means more than fifty 2006 card holders will lose their places. HENCE Bola Ocho said he thinks more than 50 will lose their tour cards.

If the IPT actually said 50 tour card holders will lose their place, then this is inaccurate, and may of been said before the IPT decided qualifiers could make the money list.

Was i clear? Please let me know if you're not sure.
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Yep I think your correct and just an oversight on the part of the IPT, probably just legacy copy on their website.

In theory of course all 150 IPT could lose their cards in the unlikely even that the 50 qualifiers fill the top 50 spots in the NA Open and then a completely new 50 players do the same in the world Open! I'm sure the numbers wouldnt allow this even if the tour card holders cut their own throats in the closed events. Needless to say its not going to happen but I expect atleast 25 of the qualifiers to earn enough points for a tour card. I think less than $20k will be enough ;)
 
Efren Reyes
Dennis Orcullo
Nick Varner
Johnny Archer
Mark Tadd (if he's anything like he was in his prime)
 
DanielM said:
I'm pretty sure the following is how it works:-

*Any player who qualified for any open events and paid the full price entry fee get to be on the money list with the card holders.
*The top 100 money list get 2007 tour cards, IRRESPECTIVE of whether they are tour card holders or not. In other words, you don't need to be a 2006 tour card holder to win a 2007 tour card.
*The end of year 2007 tour card qualifier will make 50 players card holders guaranteed.

Due to the fact a player who qualified for an open event can finish on the top 100 money list, inevitably means more than fifty 2006 card holders will lose their places. HENCE Bola Ocho said he thinks more than 50 will lose their tour cards.

If the IPT actually said 50 tour card holders will lose their place, then this is inaccurate, and may of been said before the IPT decided qualifiers could make the money list.

Was i clear? Please let me know if you're not sure.
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Yes Daniel,that's perfectly clear and of course I already knew that was what Bola Ocha meant and that he is probably right........but I still don't think it's absolutely clear.

There are three reasons why I think that.

Firstly the IPT have already changed their site information to make it clear that qualifiers in the top 100 will get cards and have had ample chance to change any related aspects if they wanted to but they have not changed anything in the site information in respect of what would happen to the top 100 and bottom 50 of the existing card holders.This change would be a fundamental shifting of the goalposts especially from the card holders' perspective and surely they would have made all the necessary changes in their site at the same time? A literal interpretation of what's still in the site today,including the wording of announcements that qualifiers could now earn places via the money list,still leaves it ambiguous.

Secondly,let's say the finishing money list positions are approximately like this:-

Positions 1- 80...... existing card holders
Positions 81-100.... qualifiers
Positions 101-170... existing card holders
positions 171-200... qualifiers

If your interpretation is correct there would be 70 card holders who do not automatically get cards but the IPT still up to today clearly say in all their IPT Tournament schedule information that only the "bottom ranked 50 card holders" will play in the end of season qualifiers alonside the hopefuls.What would IPT do with the 20 card holders ranked 101-120 then? Are they saying that they also play in the qualifier (making it the bottom ranked 70 card holders) to the exclusion of another 20 hopefuls or will they only allow the highest 50 ranked out of those card holders who finished outside the top 100 in the money list to play in the qualifier or are we saying these 20 just disappear and cease to exist?:)

Thirdly,I don't remember IPT saying clearly recently (ie at any time after they announced that qualifiers could earn a card) that there would still definitely be 50 places to play for in the end of season qualifier,if anything they've been careful not to say anything at all about how many places would be available in the end of season qualifier.

I've no strong feeling about this and am certainly totally prepared to be wrong but please have a look at the current state of play throughout the site with the above in mind and tell me if you still feel the same:D

It would also be interesting to know what clarification card holders have been given by IPT in respect of this issue.
 
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Just two names that will be high on results:

Immonen
Lely

(the fact that i really don't know that much about americans keeps my mouth shut about predicting names)
 
DanielM said:
Due to the fact a player who qualified for an open event can finish on the top 100 money list, inevitably means more than fifty 2006 card holders will lose their places. HENCE Bola Ocho said he thinks more than 50 will lose their tour cards.
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Don't want to split hairs over literals but even if your overall interpretation is correct the above is not strictly true in essence.It is quite possible that all 50 qualifying places would be won by existing card holders who didn't make the top 100 thereby effectively keeping their cards;)
 
memikey said:
Yes Daniel,that's perfectly clear and of course I already knew that was what Bola Ocha meant and that he is probably right........but I still don't think it's absolutely clear.

There are three reasons why I think that.

Firstly the IPT have already changed their site information to make it clear that qualifiers in the top 100 will get cards and have had ample chance to change any related aspects if they wanted to but they have not changed anything in the site information in respect of what would happen to the top 100 and bottom 50 of the existing card holders.This change would be a fundamental shifting of the goalposts especially from the card holders' perspective and surely they would have made all the necessary changes in their site at the same time? A literal interpretation of what's still in the site today,including the wording of announcements that qualifiers could now earn places via the money list,still leaves it ambiguous.

Secondly,let's say the finishing money list positions are approximately like this:-

Positions 1- 80...... existing card holders
Positions 81-100.... qualifiers
Positions 101-170... existing card holders
positions 171-200... qualifiers

If your interpretation is correct there would be 70 card holders who do not automatically get cards but the IPT still up to today clearly say in all their IPT Tournament schedule information that only the "bottom ranked 50 card holders" will play in the end of season qualifiers alonside the hopefuls.What would IPT do with the 20 card holders ranked 101-120 then? Are they saying that they also play in the qualifier (making it the bottom ranked 70 card holders) to the exclusion of another 20 hopefuls or will they only allow the highest 50 ranked out of those card holders who finished outside the top 100 in the money list to play in the qualifier or are we saying these 20 just disappear and cease to exist?:)

Thirdly,I don't remember IPT saying clearly recently (ie at any time after they announced that qualifiers could earn a card) that there would still definitely be 50 places to play for in the end of season qualifier,if anything they've been careful not to say anything at all about how many places would be available in the end of season qualifier.

I've no strong feeling about this and am certainly totally prepared to be wrong but please have a look at the current state of play throughout the site with the above in mind and tell me if you still feel the same:D

It would also be interesting to know what clarification card holders have been given by IPT in respect of this issue.
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That's a good point. The IPT has said two things, the bottom 50 along with 150 players from 75 pre-qualifiers will play in a final qualification tournament down to 50 players. If this is true and there will be 75 pre-qualifiers and 50 ex-tour card players, then the ONLY possibility is that the lowest of the low ranked players will have to play in the pre-qualifiers along with the hopefulls (like you said), but we know this isn't really 100% and KT could change it to whatever he wants. Another possibility is they could reduce the number of pre-qualifiers to make up for the fact more than 50 card holders will lose their place. It seems nothing is in stone.

Also i think there will be 50 places up for grabs next year, as i'm pretty sure there will be 150 tour carders at the start of next year so this tells me the end of year tournament will have 50 places. I can't see how they'd get an odd number like 55 or 45 in a qualifier.. but you're right this as of this moment isn't clear on the IPT site unless i've missed something. :)
 
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