National Rating System....It's Time

B

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Alright - the party is over. I think it's time that everybody just admit that the glory days of hustling are long gone. What's really the point of trying to fly under the radar anymore??? Are you trying to sneak up on somebody in some bar in the middle of nowhere to make a $17.23 score? I just really think it's a big waste of time to try to hide your true playing speed. I think it's such a waste of time that I think we would ALL be better off if we just adopted a National Rating System.

I think this would make it much easier to find a game. I think it would really be cool if there was a database that tracked all of our ratings and we could just pull it up at any time and make a game. Forget all the woofing and all the pool detective work that goes on. That's just a waste of time if you ask me. Let's just play pool and find a reasonable game. At some point in time, somebody is going to have all this information anyway. We might as well, take advantage of it at some point.

I guess it doesn't have to be national but we could at least state them out at the state level.

So, can I get someone to volunteer to start compiling this information for me? I was thinking the rating system would run from 0-1000, with someone like SVB being about a 990. You can put me down for a 23. That should be about right.
 
What would one number tell you? Maybe you want a whole chart of ratings...

Break - Barbox: [0-10] 9': [0-10]
9ball - ...
8ball - ...
1p - ...
14.1 - ...
banks - ...
(kicking? speed control? where would it end?)

matching up is a big part of gambling at pool. getting a clock on your opponent's speed is a big part of that.

do your homework if you wanna gamble smart. no one's just gonna tell you.

-s
 
You should see Mike Page's ranking system at Fargo Billiards check it out on their website. Yes SVB, Jesse Engel and other high players that have played there are on it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
 
In order for such a system to exist, let alone be viable, we would need a national organization established as the regulatory body for pool in the US.

Such an organization is indeed truly needed. It would not only solve the issue you raise (which is a good one) but would also provide official standardized rules as well.

Unless or until mark griffin does it, it ain't gonna happen. My vote is for him to become king.
 
joe76195 said:
Just MAN UP and play a set. Then you will know where you stand.
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I agree wholeheartedly. When and where I grew up playing pool I NEVER received a spot from anyone. We played heads up and if you won, you won. If you lost, you lost.

I worked in a pool hall as a teenager and the owner of the pool hall would take me to pool halls and bars out of town to play. We would just walk in the place and he'd say, "this kid will play anybody in here for some money". He then would set up the game and the money to be played for and we would go at it. I played for hundreds of dollars against people who we had never heard of and didn't have a clue how well they played until the games were begun. The same thing happened whenever an unknown player came into our pool hall or a bar in our town. He would tell me to play anybody and take whatever cash I needed from the register. He would sometimes send a taxi to get me at home and have the driver give me a bag of money he had gave him and have him drive me to some bar where someone had called from and said they had someone looking for a money game.

I've been in places that looked like the Wild Wild West and played people who loved to play but HATED to lose. It didn't help matters that I was a skinny teenager who was playing in pool halls, bars, and honky tonks where the law said you had to be 21 to enter. Every bartender in every bar in town knew me and I had no problems either entering or drinking in them. Because I was young, skinny, and a lot of time by myself, my "opponents" (usually men at least 15 years older than me) thought they could rattle me by starting some kind of "in your face" actions.

There were quite a few times that somebody started some crap when they were losing and somebody who was betting on me on the side either defended me or pulled out a gun to show they meant business.

I wasn't Willie Mosconi by any means, but I managed to keep an above 90% winning rate and I never once had anybody offer me a spot to play.
 
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In theory this is great. I agree completely. But, so many people only play for money. Many are not looking for a fair contest. They only want to win money. These people would be willing to have a national rating if they could figure out the system so they could play down and get an advantage.
Just my opinion.
Some years ago tennis tried this. It made it easy to find competition while traveling. There was no reason to sandbag because the game was seldom played for money.
 
In the works...

The current draft of the new national health care plan actually has this provision, and if you play someone for $17.23 without lighting up you get a 10% discount toward a used piece of Kamui chalk. I hear the republicans are attempting to challenge this at the state level. :sorry:
 
Anyone who has a rating below 50 is not allowed to make suggestions about ratings.
 
joe76195 said:
Just MAN UP and play a set. Then you will know where you stand.
Click to expand...

I have no problem doing this. I'll throw a few bills at just about anybody. The problem is - this is not the norm. Nowadays, the first thing somebody learns how to do is ask for weight. If you ask somebody to play, the first thing that comes out of their mouth is "what will you give me".

HawaiianEye said:
I agree wholeheartedly. When and where I grew up playing pool I NEVER received a spot from anyone. We played heads up and if you won, you won. If you lost, you lost.

I worked in a pool hall as a teenager and the owner of the pool hall would take me to pool halls and bars out of town to play. We would just walk in the place and he'd say, "this kid will play anybody in here for some money". He then would set up the game and the money to be played for and we would go at it. I played for hundreds of dollars against people who we had never heard of and didn't have a clue how well they played until the games were begun. The same thing happened whenever an unknown player came into our pool hall or a bar in our town. He would tell me to play anybody and take whatever cash I needed from the register. He would sometimes send a taxi to get me at home and have the driver give me a bag of money he had gave him and have him drive me to some bar where someone had called from and said they had someone looking for a money game.

I've been in places that looked like the Wild Wild West and played people who loved to play but HATED to lose. It didn't help matters that I was a skinny teenager who was playing in pool halls, bars, and honky tonks where the law said you had to be 21 to enter. Every bartender in every bar in town knew me and I had no problems either entering or drinking in them. Because I was young, skinny, and a lot of time by myself, my "opponents" (usually men at least 15 years older than me) thought they could rattle me by starting some kind of "in your face" actions.

There were quite a few times that somebody started some crap when they were losing and somebody who was betting on me on the side either defended me or pulled out a gun to show they meant business.

I wasn't Willie Mosconi by any means, but I managed to keep an above 90% winning rate and I never once had anybody offer me a spot to play.
Click to expand...

Sadly, these days are long gone I think. I think part of the reason for this is all the handicapped tournaments that guys play in. Everybody has grown accustomed to getting or giving some sort of weight.

JoeyA said:
Anyone who has a rating below 50 is not allowed to make suggestions about ratings.
Click to expand...

Somebody is paying attention.

Alright, you can move me up to 50.:thumbup:
 
Arizona has a Rating or Handicapping System, it only work as well as the people who do ratings, and running the event allow it to do.

It will not catch all sand baggers.

It will not catch those who are good at hiding speed.

It don't keep Bar or Room Owners letting friends in who are OVER RATED for a particular Tournament Play, and that they take MONEY they should not have been able to play fort in the first place.

In the End the SAME GOOD PLAYERS always Win, and the same poor player just prize fund contributors.
 
I see youre from Michigan.. You just stick with trying to beat Kirkwood and dont worry about the list. There is still money to be made and a lot more than your $17 games you play.
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
Arizona has a Rating or Handicapping System, it only work as well as the people who do ratings, and running the event allow it to do.

It will not catch all sand baggers.

It will not catch those who are good at hiding speed.

It don't keep Bar or Room Owners letting friends in who are OVER RATED for a particular Tournament Play, and that they take MONEY they should not have been able to play fort in the first place.

In the End the SAME GOOD PLAYERS always Win, and the same poor player just prize fund contributors.
Click to expand...

I'm taking this thread rogue...

I think I've seen you talk about problems with Arizona tournaments before and I've been meaning to ask a question about it. Is it too complicated to run separate, but simultaneous "pro" and "amateur" brackets? The "pro" bracket has a higher entry fee but the payout is good. The "amateur" bracket has a low entry fee and low payout (maybe even just a new, cheap stick or case or gift certificate to a billiards supplier.) I realize that I'm speaking from ignorance, but I've seen this structure in disc golf tourneys and it works well (though I realize disc golf and pool are two completely different animals.)

It seems that with the help of a computer, it wouldn't be too difficult to manage two effectively separate tournaments simultaneously.
 
Screw it, I'm in.

I probably start out at about 250. After two beers, and some good tunes on the juke, I am rolling at 300. Another beer, and a shot of Jameson's, and we are back to 250. I lose probably 75 points if the establishment is frequented by the fairer sex. Take off additional 50 if they are wearing clothing meant to accentuate certain anatomical features. Another 2 beers, and I am now down to about 100(though, in my mind, I am at 500). Another beer, and two bad rolls, and I have fallen off the radar, at which point, I am ready to play for the cheese.;)


Braden<--------thought hustler was just a dirty magazine!
 
robsnotes4u said:
You should see Mike Page's ranking system at Fargo Billiards check it out on their website. Yes SVB, Jesse Engel and other high players that have played there are on it.
Click to expand...

Funny, I was going to make a thread about this yesterday begging the master-level instructors to implement something. I was gathering quotes from various people showing how Shanelle has been given these ratings:

B
C+
C
C-
D+

And then the standard, "well around here she'd be a ...."

If your level of play varies from State to State, I want to live in the State where I run more balls. Which State is it? Is it a different State if you're a man or a woman? A particular city, region, or tenement block? I need to know.

Fargo / Hopkins ratings are pretty humbling and probably among the least subjective, but for an overall game including the ability to do more than just pocket balls, I'd think IPAT (which also has pro's on it's scoring) would probably be the best.

If two people score a 114 in Fargo then they should be pretty evenly matched. If one lives in Raleigh, and one in Seattle, when they get together in Boulder, they should still both be able to play quite close to one another. Safeties aren't really addressed though. If they both score around 1200-1300 in IPAT 1 (for example) then they can likely play the same shots, and have enough cueball control to safe or escape which is good.

Maybe a weighted average of both Fargo and IPAT scores?

Seriously, whomever is running "stuff" these days, ditch the VNEA/APA/CPA/TAP/whatever league ratings and adopt a single system.
 
BradenK said:
Screw it, I'm in.

I probably start out at about 250. After two beers, and some good tunes on the juke, I am rolling at 300. Another beer, and a shot of Jameson's, and we are back to 250. I lose probably 75 points if the establishment is frequented by the fairer sex. Take off additional 50 if they are wearing clothing meant to accentuate certain anatomical features. Another 2 beers, and I am now down to about 100(though, in my mind, I am at 500). Another beer, and two bad rolls, and I have fallen off the radar, at which point, I am ready to play for the cheese.;)


Braden<--------thought hustler was just a dirty magazine!
Click to expand...

lol .... :thumbup:
 
BasementDweller said:
Alright - the party is over. I think it's time that everybody just admit that the glory days of hustling are long gone. What's really the point of trying to fly under the radar anymore??? Are you trying to sneak up on somebody in some bar in the middle of nowhere to make a $17.23 score? I just really think it's a big waste of time to try to hide your true playing speed. I think it's such a waste of time that I think we would ALL be better off if we just adopted a National Rating System.

I think this would make it much easier to find a game. I think it would really be cool if there was a database that tracked all of our ratings and we could just pull it up at any time and make a game. Forget all the woofing and all the pool detective work that goes on. That's just a waste of time if you ask me. Let's just play pool and find a reasonable game. At some point in time, somebody is going to have all this information anyway. We might as well, take advantage of it at some point.

I guess it doesn't have to be national but we could at least state them out at the state level.

So, can I get someone to volunteer to start compiling this information for me? I was thinking the rating system would run from 0-1000, with someone like SVB being about a 990. You can put me down for a 23. That should be about right.
Click to expand...

Been there done that.

Ron Hoffman gave up a good case making business trying to get a national ranking system set up.

Allen Hopkins also tried for years to get one going.

Someone else from Minneapolis tried as well.

Problem is the fractured nature of pool in America.

VNEA
TAP
ACS
APA
BCAPL
USAPL
POOL300
UPA League
VIKING Tour
Midwest Tour
SouthEast Tour
TriState Tour
etc.......

All of whom play by their OWN rules and all of whom have little to no interest in
 
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