Natural ability VS. Trained ability

[Bobby]

But, if this were to be true, how can anyone know what the limit of their natural abilities are?? Hence, the 'catch 22'. Too many people use that phrase as a copout for lack of desire or discipline. If you were to give them a million dollars to increase their level by 50% in two years, you would see them do it.

I couldn't agree with you more! I had this argument with someone and used an example very similar to yours, and he agreed that the player would get better but get this: he added "but thats a hypothetical situation, it wouldn't happen in real life" and I said "that's the point!" he just couldn't see the point I was making was that it would be possible.

I firmly believe that when we think we can't do something we've already built a wall around our mind.

 

[trustyrusty]

ok, I've got a question for the "natural" folks on here. If you took a name mentioned on this thread more than a few times...Tiger Woods, could go back to when he was 2 or 3 years old and never had put a golf club in his hand, but instead handed the kid a pool cue (along with his dad's mentoring and tutoring, love for the game, mental strengthening, drive for perfection, work ethic, etc. etc. etc. - everything instilled in Tiger but in a pool sense instead) - is there any doubt with Tigers determination to succeed and willingness to work hard at the game, that he'd be one of, if not the best in pool today? There are tons of players out there more physically gifted than others that just don't have the head/heart or won't work as hard as others, so the natural ability takes them only so far. It's a rare few that have both a TON of natural ability and drive. (I can name a number of NBA players more pysically talented than Jordan, same true in other sports with guys like Gretzski, Montana, Sampras, etc. - but CHAMPIONS are champions for a reason, and I think (uh oh) a large percentage of the reason is head/heart!!!)

 

[gunzby]

I don't think it's possible to surpass your natural abilities. You can only realize your natural potential to a greater or lesser extent, and that is where hard work, dedication, heart, and the like come into play.

This is where lies an argument. It is "drive" that creates the realization of natural ability. Dan Gable is a prime example. He is (not maybe) the greatest freestyle wrestler that ever lived. His drive is what made his natural ability 100%. An example of his training is how he would row a boat out in the middle of the lake and jump in. You either swim back to shore or you are a floater.

Another example is when I used to train people in powerlifting. I took in some kid one day after he pleaded with me to do so. After two days I told him we were training legs the next day and to be ready. He shrugged it off. He was doing leg presses and quit. Before he could set the weight I told him to give me 10 more (I knew he could do it). He looked at me like I was crazy, saying "10 more!!!". Well low and behold he did 10 more and set the weight at near collapse. After he did that I looked at him and told him that he now knew how much he was selling himself short.

Drive may not beat out natural ability on day one or day one thousand, but it does beat it out unless the other player has a drive equal to that of the opponent.

Natural ability is something you settle with and not something you realize. Take this from someone who knows a thing or two about training people in a variety of physically and mentally exhausting things.

At a medium skeletal build and 230lbs I benched 500lbs without a bench shirt or any steroids of any kind ever. I also squatted 540lbs at a weight of 140lbs when I was 15 before I dislocated my knee and I wasn't even close to tapped out.....I bet I could've done 600 had I known what I know now.

I've seen blind people ski on black diamonds as well as a blind person hit a hole in one on a par 3. I have also seen a young man with polio of the legs never get pinned in freestyle wrestling. You cannot ever convince me that natural ability is above trained ability because there will always be someone much hungrier than you.

 

[gunzby]

Here is a picture of myself when I was training people. Before anyone asks yes it does cause a problem playing pool. It also causes a problem with eating as I ate every 3 hours (I slept 3 hours at a time), and showering (I couldn't wash my back at all and had difficulties with other parts of my body) as well as constant aches and pains.

 

[softshot]

don't worry about the guy who is more gifted than you.....he's lazy and thinks it's easy

Worry about the guy who WANTS it more than you.... he knows how hard it is.. and he's prepared..

 

[JB Cases]

Interesting study.
They use chess players as an example.

http://education.arts.unsw.edu.au/fidestudy/results


Can anyone become an expert at any activity with enough practice and/or training?
Or, does natural talent limit ultimate performance level? The idea of natural talent derives
from common everyday observations of some people acquiring a skill much more rapidly
than others, and/or very much younger than average, and then reaching a higher ultimate
performance level. Since at least the 19th Century, it has been assumed that natural talent
differences among individuals set differing, fixed maximum performance limits. Training can
improve skill only to a certain level. This idea still largely dominates formal education and
sports coaching, where the search is on for people with evident natural talent to develop
further.


What natural talent actually consists of might differ across domains of expertise and
may consist of a set of abilities and even personality traits, which are partly innate. Complex
intellectual domains may require only a threshold IQ score of around 120 for high
achievement, beyond which creativity and motivation differences create performance
differences. In the sciences and the arts, generally a few people excel and make most of the
contributions. Studies show that they tend to have a similar set of ability and personality
characteristics; IQ score over 120, and such personality traits as high motivation and non-
conformity.....

But CHESS isn't pool.
I wonder what the results would be in our game?

This study pretty much says what I said the whole time which is with training and practice one can become world class but not necessarily the world's best.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Haven't seen many, if any, comments on the last part of that study quoted above. Nonconformity as a factor. Or imagination, you could say. Always there will be great grinders who will work like mad, but a little creativity is like a lever and can lift a lot more weight. Assuming you've done the other work, of course!

Then again, I usually come back to the old saying, "If a fool would continue in his folly, maybe he would become wise." And doesn't it seem that way at some point? It gets ridiculous, you feel like a fool, putting in all those hours and wondering why you're only maybe 2% better than last year!:smile:

I think you've got to have a certain level of desire and craziness to fight the uphill battle sometimes ... but no matter what, this fool realizes he ain't never gonna be a threat to the world-beaters. Except, maybe, just maybe, in a single short race when the rolls are going my way and he's got indigestion, a hangover, and maybe a waitress and an ex-wife on his mind!

 

[dr9ball]

What I see in this discussion is alot of opinion and introspection.

I thought as an aside, I would provide a couple of references on Expert Performance / Delibrate Practice etc to bring a little academic rigor to the discussion the following may prove useful for those interested in what some research shows.

Towards a General Theory of Expertise: Prospects and Limits (Ericcson, Anders, 1991)

http://www.amazon.com/Toward-Genera...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1231086700&sr=1-3

Also

The Road To Excellence: the Acquisition of Expert Performance in the Arts and Sciences, Sports, and Games (Ericcson, Andres, 1996)

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Excellen...ce-Sciences/dp/0805822321/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c


I hope these are helpful reference points. Ericcson's studies on deliberate practice are quite interesting.


Thanks,

Rufus

Proud member of the SPF family of BCA Instructors

 

[JB Cases]

Haven't seen many, if any, comments on the last part of that study quoted above. Nonconformity as a factor. Or imagination, you could say. Always there will be great grinders who will work like mad, but a little creativity is like a lever and can lift a lot more weight. Assuming you've done the other work, of course!

Then again, I usually come back to the old saying, "If a fool would continue in his folly, maybe he would become wise." And doesn't it seem that way at some point? It gets ridiculous, you feel like a fool, putting in all those hours and wondering why you're only maybe 2% better than last year!:smile:

I think you've got to have a certain level of desire and craziness to fight the uphill battle sometimes ... but no matter what, this fool realizes he ain't never gonna be a threat to the world-beaters. Except, maybe, just maybe, in a single short race when the rolls are going my way and he's got indigestion, a hangover, and maybe a waitress and an ex-wife on his mind!

Well that's the whole thing. How many people really have all the time in the world to devote to becoming world class at something with no other responsibilities?

I firmly believe that any person with time, desire, physical ability, proper instruction and ability to learn and implement what they learn can become a world class pool player.

What is world class? I would say it's being able to hold your own against other world class players, win some lose some.

Then again I am also the eternal optimist.

 

[Pushout]

Irving Crane was quoted in a Billiards Digest article as saying: "You either have natural ability, or you don't." in reference as to how good you could get, IIRC.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[deadstroke7]

Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.

FWIW.

 

[cmbwsu]

... [size=+2] ✄ ... [/size] How many times have you seen someone self-destruct on the verge of winning?

If I had a dime for every one

 

[Cameron Smith]

If you really take an honest look at yourself, most of us have been taught to be losers. That we can't , or don't deserve to be a champion. How many times have you seen someone self-destruct on the verge of winning?

Good post, especially this portion. So many kids are dissuaded from trying to become a top level hockey, baseball, football player or golfer. Many people have a distorted version of 'good' because they feel that the level of great players is impossible to reach.

If a compelete beginner walks into a pool hall and pronounces that they want to become a great player, they will get laughed out of the room. I know this for a fact. People seem to have this strange belief that those who are great were always great. But the truth is, every great player was a D- player at one point.

My opinion is that natural talent is certainly a neccessity, however the thing to admire is the hard work and dedication that the top players have or had.

 

[ShootingArts]

good point

Neil,

One of the reasons that I keep my mouth shut about matchs that seem blatantly uneven is I have seen a far lesser player overall take a far better player often enough to know that ignorance can be a great equalizer. I have also known many players that look around at the competition and "know" they can't beat this one and that one so the best finish they believe is possible might be top five or top ten. I know of no greater self-fulfilling prophecy than thinking you can't beat someone. On the other hand "knowing" that anyone can be beaten on a given day empowers a player.

Hu

Many of todays champions do have a natural talent that leans beneficially towards playing pool. And, they mistakenly think this is what seperates them from the rest. I believe they are mistaken.

All it takes to get good at actually playing the game is decent hand-eye co-ordination, and the ability to learn. To become a champion, though, requires much more. Of which a lot of it is often overlooked.

There are many, many basement players that actually play as good or even better than the so called champions on their own table, by themselves. Pocketing balls and getting position can be learned by anyone with normal capabilities over time with proper instruction.

I know of two guys that played 15 years ago. They both believed they would win. The first guy started out with a 10 pack, then came up dry. His opponent answered with an 11 pack. These were just two A players. Often, they would do good in tournaments, but seldom actually win one. Yet, they were both capable of world class play. So, what was missing?

They both had the ability to be great, yet, overall, neither was. That is because there is much more than talent involved. On that day, they both had a burning desire to beat their opponent. And they both BELIEVED that they could. So, they played to their abilities. And, put on quite a show for the rest of us.

The key word here is BELIEVE. The champions have been taught to believe in themselves. To actually learn from any mistakes they make. Not just how not to do it, but also seeing what happens when they do it differently. It might help somewhere down the line.

They think of themselves very highly. That is why many are considered to have a big ego. It is necessary to excell in most cases. They have also learned how to deal with challenges and how to think in dire situations that most would crumble under. They have learned to deal with any pressure, and actually welcome it.

What I'm trying to say here is- there is SO MUCH more to being a champion than natural talent. Talent only plays a small role in the whole scheme of it all. Nuturing- how one was raised and taught, life experiences, mean so much more to becoming great at any endeavor.

The mind is the biggest obstacle to most people from achieving what they desire. They want, and it ends there. You not only have to want, you have to take action, and you have to BELIEVE.

If you really take an honest look at yourself, most of us have been taught to be losers. That we can't , or don't deserve to be a champion. How many times have you seen someone self-destruct on the verge of winning?

 

[poolpro]

Many of todays champions do have a natural talent that leans beneficially towards playing pool. And, they mistakenly think this is what seperates them from the rest. I believe they are mistaken.

All it takes to get good at actually playing the game is decent hand-eye co-ordination, and the ability to learn. To become a champion, though, requires much more. Of which a lot of it is often overlooked.

There are many, many basement players that actually play as good or even better than the so called champions on their own table, by themselves. Pocketing balls and getting position can be learned by anyone with normal capabilities over time with proper instruction.

I know of two guys that played 15 years ago. They both believed they would win. The first guy started out with a 10 pack, then came up dry. His opponent answered with an 11 pack. These were just two A players. Often, they would do good in tournaments, but seldom actually win one. Yet, they were both capable of world class play. So, what was missing?

They both had the ability to be great, yet, overall, neither was. That is because there is much more than talent involved. On that day, they both had a burning desire to beat their opponent. And they both BELIEVED that they could. So, they played to their abilities. And, put on quite a show for the rest of us.

The key word here is BELIEVE. The champions have been taught to believe in themselves. To actually learn from any mistakes they make. Not just how not to do it, but also seeing what happens when they do it differently. It might help somewhere down the line.

They think of themselves very highly. That is why many are considered to have a big ego. It is necessary to excell in most cases. They have also learned how to deal with challenges and how to think in dire situations that most would crumble under. They have learned to deal with any pressure, and actually welcome it.

What I'm trying to say here is- there is SO MUCH more to being a champion than natural talent. Talent only plays a small role in the whole scheme of it all. Nuturing- how one was raised and taught, life experiences, mean so much more to becoming great at any endeavor.

The mind is the biggest obstacle to most people from achieving what they desire. They want, and it ends there. You not only have to want, you have to take action, and you have to BELIEVE.

If you really take an honest look at yourself, most of us have been taught to be losers. That we can't , or don't deserve to be a champion. How many times have you seen someone self-destruct on the verge of winning?

I agree with a lot of this. Great post. I think a lot of people love to let themselves off the hook with " that guy is a natural". Once that is established, they no longer need to hold themselves up to the same kind of standards, or make comparisons. The conclusion is that even if they did work as hard as they could, they would not reach that level no matter what, so I will save the time and effort and just NOT do anything.

I am not saying that anyone could become a champion, just that MANY people sell themselves short before really giving it a chance.

Have you ever tried to teach a relative new player how to take the smarter shots? "You should play the safety here, it is the best choice" or " that is a very low percentage shot, maybe you should try......" Then they get down and completely ignore your great advice and fire it in like nothing. They have not missed the shot as often as more experienced players and have not made the same judgements about it. They have not labeled it as a hard shot, with negative expectations, and therefore have not placed the limitations on themselves.

It is like if you raise a large dog from a puppy. When he is young you can tie him up with a string, he will fight at it for a long while. At some point he will give up and realize that he cannot get free. Many years later, when he is 5 times his original size and strength, he still will not even try to get free. It is settled that he cannot do it. He has accepted his limitations, even though they no longer apply.


Jw

 

[Siz]

academic rigor?

I thought as an aside, I would provide a couple of references on Expert Performance / Delibrate Practice etc to bring a little academic rigor to the discussion the following may prove useful for those interested in what some research shows.

I have not read these 2 papers by Ericsson, but I have read his "The role of deliberate practice in the acquisition of expert performance". And 'academic rigor' is not a phrase that leaps to my mind.

Amongst some dubious analysis, there are some interesting bits. However I would caution anyone against accepting the author's conclusions without a careful read.

 

[fan-tum]

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

I totally agree. If you took 1,000,000 people, put identical cues in their hands, gave identical instruction-- in 5 years you'd have 1,000,000 people playing at many different levels, but maybe, and probably not, you'd have another Efren, or probably another pro level player. The first time Efren picked up a cue, I think his stroke was straight back-straight thru.

 

[ShootingArts]

adversity

I totally agree. If you took 1,000,000 people, put identical cues in their hands, gave identical instruction-- in 5 years you'd have 1,000,000 people playing at many different levels, but maybe, and probably not, you'd have another Efren, or probably another pro level player. The first time Efren picked up a cue, I think his stroke was straight back-straight thru.

Ever notice that many champions in all areas suffered severe adversity in life before becoming champions? Nothing like a silver spoon to discourage greatness. Take a million people with the same training, the same starting age, and the same desire and you would have thousands that could beat Efren on a given day. You would have over a hundred thousand pro level players. It doesn't take that unusual of natural ability to play at a pro level, rather it is what you do with that natural ability.

Hu

 

[trustyrusty]

Ever notice that many champions in all areas suffered severe adversity in life before becoming champions? Nothing like a silver spoon to discourage greatness. Take a million people with the same training, the same starting age, and the same desire and you would have thousands that could beat Efren on a given day. You would have over a hundred thousand pro level players. It doesn't take that unusual of natural ability to play at a pro level, rather it is what you do with that natural ability.

Hu

this is where I'm with you. Like I mentioned with Tiger...watch the 2000 US OPEN, he doesn't just want to win, he wants to destroy you and make you believe there is no way to beat him. He also is playing against HISTORY, he needs to hear that noboby has ever done this or that better; the records mean quite a bit to him as well (winning by the lowest score EVER, beating the field by the most strokes, winning more tourneys, and majors than anyone, etc.). Sometimes winning isn't enough...he wants to step on your neck in the process, and make you think twice about even trying again, regardless how talented, or great of a player you are. Just listen to the absolute BEST players in the world when asked about winning without him in the field....they believe it doesn't mean as much either. Now that is a CHAMPION!!